Hookahs/ Waterpipes (Moral and Intelligence related question)

Well, to clarify, I live in Caracas, Venezuela. Something just caught my attention: In my class, every single person has smoked Hookah, every one of them. I mean, most of it is "Social Smoking", but still...

My rant/Thread is divided into two parts: The moral part, and the Intelligence part. Now, I dunno about you guys, but I have always been... A somewhat moralistic kind of person, who tries to strive for the best. Maybe it is just me, but I see the fact that no one could support the pressure as something that is wrong with Venezuelan youth. I mean, when I said everyobody, I meant it. What do you guys think of this in a moral aspect? Am I too old fashioned for a 17 year old? Am I supposed to not care, since Indulging in Drugs is the new thing and socially acceptable?

Now, the Intellectual part. The reasoning for the mass smoking, even among my closest, geekiest friends? They say it is not HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH. This struk me as weird. Not even the smartest thought about the fact that if it contains tobacco, it is still dangerous, no matter if there is a supposed "filter" to eliminate the nicotine, (yeah, that is what people at my school say... Welcome to the future, where a tube that passes through water eliminates nicotine.) I mean, people can smoke, sure, whatever floats their boats, but at least admit that is a drug!

The point is, that the reasoning behind all this is because they smoke flavorized tobacco, so they don't think it is an actual drug. The main reason I made this thread was because the mother of one of my girlfriends bought her a Hookah, in order for her to STOP smoking tobacco. according to her "she should stop doing drugs and engage in a more healthier habit/"

Finally, after I have convinced some of my friends of the effects, they go to me with: "Oh whatever, afterall, it is just smoking dude." Which is when my moralistic side appears again to judge people.

....

Sorry if it was too long. Any feedback on this?

This has nothing to do with morality. It (Hookah) is the same as smoking.

Yes, it's a drug, like coffee or cacao or beer or cigarettes. Most people drink, smoke or eat a small healthy amount of these substances with no negative side-effects.

There are social problems associated with drug abuse. Not drug use, and certainly not with tobacco smoked amongst friends.

I find it incomprehensible that you could see this as anything other than a mildly counter-productive choice. There is no ethical dimension I can see at all.

edited 30th Jan '11 4:35:01 PM by mmysqueeant

As long as it's just tobacco in it, it's the same as smoking a cigarette. Less additives and tar so it's healthier but not healthy. There is no safe way to consume tobacco, and I'm a smoker.

@mmysqueenant: Yes, it does involve moral. I am the one who made the disscussion, and I am talking about how it represents a moral aspect for me, not for you. Since I came from a very values oriented family, getting invloved with drugs isn't my cup of coffee. Maybe you cannot see it, but I see it as a way of how the venzuelan society is in constant decay. Besides, technically, it is illegal to smoke at the age of 16 or 17 (that is our age right now) in my country. Does that anwser your question about how does it propose a Moral Viewpoint?

@Barkey: Yeah, I know, but that is not my point. My problem is what people think back here in my country. Okay, so what if a teenager is actually stupid enough to buy the "nicotine free tobacco" bullshit, but if the mother of one opf my girlfriends actually buys a Hookah for her daughter 'cause she thinks this is true, and only because she believes she may cure her daughter of smoking addiction, then we have a problem here. I was not asking about the effects of Hookahs, but on how many people would believe this bs.

Nobody I've ever met.

It's a common misconception.

The actual extent of the health impact of water pipes is still unknown and debated... Some claim it's not as bad as cigarettes, others claim it's much worse, and then again others say it is comparable.

I've even seen a supposed "study" online a couple of years ago, which tested, how well the water filters unhealthy components out of the smoke, and came to the conclusion that you would inhale much less unhealthy substances than with cigarettes, next to none at all. What many people didn't pay much attention to, is that when you looked at the domain of that website, it was of a company which sells water-pipes.

edited 30th Jan '11 7:57:05 PM by Herbarius

Jesus, I would hate to see your reaction when you realize that more than half of your friends are also smoking pot and sniffing coke.

"getting invloved with drugs isn't my cup of coffee"

Did you... mean to do this?

Polarity, Your OP confuses me. You're using the term "Hookah" as though it was a substance, not a method. You can put anything smokable in a hookah — tobacco, marijuana, hashish... If your friends are smoking tobacco in a hookah, they're still smoking tobacco. And I don't see where there's a moral question at all.

edited 30th Jan '11 9:26:45 PM by Madrugada

this. Once again, Maddie, you are smart.

As Barkey also pointed out...tobacco is tobacco, no matter how someone's choosing to smoke it. I see no difference between some outlandish contraption and a lit cigarette. And I used to smoke (still in the process of quitting), so I'm not just being an over-moraled fuckwit.

They wanna smoke? Let 'em smoke, but make sure they understand there's no difference (moral, physical or otherwise) between what they're doing ad what every other smoker does at least twenty times a day.

Everyone has pretty much touched on the facts. The water acts as filter and traps a lot of nasty stuff but your still breathing some in.

There's another big difference between hookahs and cigarettes: Hookahs don't burn the tobacco; they burn coals, which heat the tobacco (think of the difference between cooked food and burnt food). So not only does the water system filter out some of the chemicals, but the harmful chemicals created by burning are not produced at all.

(This has nothing to do with morality, of course, only with health.)

@Jewel: I see you providing a heap of technicalities. Tobacco is still tobacco, apparently.

Over here I tried hashih with my friends, it was boring and they pretended they were stoned, its not all that fun.

The whole drugs/not drugs thing is social stigma and linguistics. Coffee and tea are both technically recreational drugs (psychoactives).

I don't like the propagandas both for and against smoking. Especially the notion that "smoking is not cool." This strikes me as an unfortunate implication, declaring that because it's bad, it cannot be cool, and physical appearance is directly tied to goodness/badness. Yes it's bad. It's also badass.

I smoke every now and then. *looks at avatar* Didn't see that coming, did you?

edited 31st Jan '11 1:32:36 AM by Catalogue

Ok, to awnser some questions:

No, I did not see the pun I made at first, but... Yeah, I drink coffee, but If I'm not mistaken, USA has a very strong policy on coffee. I mean, since little I have drank coffee. But you know, I did not mean all kinds of drugs. Caffeine is present in many things, and it isn't an extremly hazardous drug.

Second of all, sorry If I made my OP look weird, I did not mean Hookah as a substance, it's just that for a moment, I forgot what language I was speaking. In Venezuela, they refer to Hookah as it were a substance, even if it is not. While I do not consider your post a super mega smart one, like the next poster did, thank you anyway. Yeah, I was refering to Hookahs filled with Tobacco.

Finally, I will say it again: I already know the effects of Hookah, and how it is the same as smoking tobacco, my rant consists on the supidity of the rest of my class. Finally, I have never considered smoking Tobacco badass. I find it a very subjective opinion, so I recommend you think that through before you post it.

You haven't satisfactorily explained why you consider this a moral issue.

Saying "it's a moral issue because I come from a family with values" is saying "it's a moral issue because my family considers it a moral issue".

It isn't an ethical issue going by any theory I can think of.

Unless you're going off what the word comes from (mores, customs) or a relativist interpretation of morals. In either case, adopting a relativist position usually results in abandoning judgement of the moral positions of others. This doesn't appear to have happened in your case.

I never implied I have, if I may be so bold to assume you're referring to me.

Back on the issue at hand though, do your friends smoke behind their parents' backs or is teen smoking not that big of a deal around your vicinity?

I hate to be so pragmatist but in Rome do as Romans do. I'm under the impression that it's not that bad since there's this mother and hookah anecdote.

edited 31st Jan '11 11:13:02 AM by Catalogue

That's Ok, it's kind of what I thought was going on — a thinking in one language, typing in a different one thing.

But yes, tobacco is tobacco, from a moral viewpoint, whether it's in cigarettes, cigars, hookah cut, chew, snuff... whatever form. one form is no more moral than another, (although I suppose that it could be argued that chew and snuff are "more moral" because they don't inflict the second-hand chemicals on everybody who's nearby (just the ones who have to empty the spittoons/dispose of the spit cans, or launder the handkerchiefs).)

edited 31st Jan '11 3:39:55 PM by Madrugada

Why is it, that some think that this has anything to do with morality, anyway? I see people are keeping to bring that up, but don't really elaborate on that.

(This, being generous with the term "morality" in and of itself, which is such an ill-defined concept. But to not sway too much offtopic here I would suggest to define it as "what generally is being called morality" for the sake of this conversation.)

The reason it's a moral issue is that children are involved. Apparently there has been some sort of failure of moral leadership on the part of adult authority in the OP's home country. I found the story of the mother buying her daughter (a minor, I assume) both sad and frustrating. When they become adults they can make their own decisions, but until then their health and safety is responsibility of the adults around them.

Still, scarcely a hookah-specific question. I find it creepy when you see moms at Starbucks buying their two-year-olds coffee.

There is some research that smoking as a teenager makes it more likely you will smoke as an adult. And once you start, it's very hard to stop, I can testify. So it does become a moral issue for the parents—if they allow you to smoke, for any reason, they are implicitly turning you into a smoker, with all the negative consequences of that behavior. The same thing applies to other drugs, particularly alcohol and marijuana, because they are plentiful. It's much more difficult to pass up drugs when you have an addictive personality, which is usually inherited, so the parents have an even stronger obligation to preach temperance.

It may be out of the experience of many tropers, particularly in developed countries, but traditional parents expect their children to do as they're told. If your parents tell you not to smoke, you will receive serious punishment if you are caught smoking. Yes, it's behavior modification, and it works, and when you are older you will be glad for it.

Ok, what I mean by "Morality" is, well, two things:

Yes, I do come from a very values centered family, it mostly impies that for me, drugs not only imply to having a disdain for human life, even if it is your own, but the fact that we ALL know here that what kinds of drugs can kill you, essentially making the act of still doing drugs an act of giving in to pier pressure, among other things. The other part is that Venezuela, not only famous for having the most dangerous city in the world (Its capital, Caracas) or high levels of inflation, is in itself, corrupt. The fact that Minors are involved would be a huge factor too, but to be honest, for a Venezuelan, that is the least of one's worries.

I'm sorry if it seems to Knight Templar of me, but believe me, I do know that everybody has a free will, and the right to do whatever they want, but it still makes me sad.

Well then I suppose by that definition it would be immoral but it seems like you've already made up your mind on this matter so why then are you asking us? I don't know if the legality of tobacco over other drugs changes your mind at all. The only person who can decide this is you.