Pagan Tropers Unite!

Pretty much. I don't dislike Christianity because I'm Pagan; I dislike it because I, personally, dislike it, for reasons I've expanded upon in great detail.

Ah, okay. Thank you muchly to all.

Hey, anyone wanna play a fun game?

I was going through my stuff in the storage room to find things I might wanna bring with me to Moon's, and I found the old rune-interpretation book I bought in middle school. Wanna go through it and see if it's full of shit? Lord knows the '90s and '00s played host to quite a few 'magic' tomes of questionable authenticity for teenagers, and this one is so thin there's no way each sigil gets more than two paragraphs.

edited 28th Aug '12 7:32:25 PM by FurikoMaru

ME, ME! I wanna play "Identify the made-up shit!" *raises hand frantically*

Ooh, they start the whole thing off with an excerpt from a Longfellow poem! That's promising! You'll forgive me if I spend the rest of this review/liveblog thing singing it to the tune of Jerusalem.

So the introduction does that annoying thing that some people in debate clubs do and starts with a definition of 'rune' - or rather, two; the proper dictionary one ("any of the letters of the earliest Germanic alphabet used by Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons from about the third century BC and formed by modifying Roman or Greek characters to suit carving"), over which it is a trifle sniffy, and the fancy old school one ("whispered secret").

There's some blahdeblah for a few paragraphs about Greco-Roman deities and their influence on certain English turns of phrase, and then the days of the week thing, which really indicates the intended demographic of this book.

But... you just said the OED said they're heavily modified Mediterranean letters! How can they come from the *~mystic~* North when they're a result of the commercial South?

Aww, snap, I just had the *best* idea! A Sesame Street fanfic wherein the denizens fight off an attack by some mean person or other by casting spells with the letters of the week! I would so read about Super-Grover's heroic death utilizing S for super, shield and sacrifice.

... I may or may not have too many thoughts. ._.;

- specifically the desk drawer of a man who let his fondness for D&D determine his academic career path, right next to the vodka -

That last word always throws me. Is it really forebears or is it forebearers? Spellcheck says the former is correct, but it doesn't recognize forbearance as a word, so that's not a great help.

Moving on, it seems that this book is as fond of a certain bit of WMG re: Norse Mythology as I am, namely the one about how Ragnarok's already happened. It claims that according to myth, humans acquired the runes by questing in search of knowledge of the golden age when Asgard was still around.

...yeeeeeeeeeah, I call Christianization.

>___< "...hrnmnwha...? Howth'Hel'd you li'l fuckers get in here? Oh, why are your voices so high?" ;__;

"... so y'can bicker with each other about reconstructionism and cultural appropriation?" -_- "That's always a fun time."

"Spoiler warning, most of it is about cows and bookkeeping. I've bookmarked the bits about violence and tits. You're welcome."

'Now get the fuck off my planet.' >_<

"Actually I was talking about the Odin/Loki fanart I included. Teach those little halfmonkeys to wake me up at four am!" ^__^ *snuggles back down in her seat*

Night-night, storytellin' lady. :3

What.

No, honestly, what? I mean, yeah, earlier than when they came to live in Europe, sure, but... the Aryans were cattlelords! They conquered India! As far as I know, when people hypothesize they came from any one place in particular, it's usually Southern Russia or somewhere like that.

This book needs to be more specific about things - it's used the word ancient like five times by now, each time referring to a different period of history.

Is imbue the word he wants, here? I didn't think it had a figurative meaning in addition to the literal one.

Did a dictionary eat your childhood dog, man? Ice cream is also in the dictionary, fucko, and so is sex!

... I'm Canadian. I know what it is to hold one's experience with proper winter over the Southern pansies' heads. But anyone who tries to tell you north-western India has a more pleasant climate than Lillehammer is talking out of their ass*. You might as well try to compare living in a colony at the bottom of the ocean to living in a colony in outer space; they're both really impressive and really shitty places to live if your society's beneath a certain level of technological sophistication for reasons which probably aren't similar enough to be worth comparing. I'm more inclined to think owing their lives to their herd animals and the greenery that fed them is what made them such devoted animists, not General Winter.

I think I'll stop here. Let me know if you're interested in more or if you take issue with something I or the author have said.

• Granted, considering the Aryans were way into cows and horses, it's possible that northwest India is a barren unpleasant stretch of land because of them and that's why they left. But if that's the case the author's still an idiot, because in that scenario the Aryans surely cause their own hardship wherever they go and the weather's just exacerbating a pre-existing problem.

edited 14th Aug '12 11:51:44 PM by FurikoMaru

That is DELIGHTFULLY stupid. I don't even know where to begin on my favorite parts to laugh at.

On other baffling matters: I have confirmed the animal identities of all my Spring Awakening crew but Hanschen. Wendla = Turtledove, Moritz = Bear, Martha = Boar, and Melchior = Stag.

It turns out that Hanschen being gay DOES fit the various "rebellion/outcast" themes of most trickster archetypes. Holy shit. But every time I ask him what he is, he just laughs at me and slips away. I asked Martha about it; she scoffed and went, "Hanschen's not going to TELL you what he is. You either make him tell you or be faster than him."

I said, "But he told YOU all!" and she rolled her eyes and went, "Because we didn't ASK him like you are."

And I was like, "...So how did you make him tell you?"

Martha then turned into a boar and pinned (human) Moritz down. Cue the flailing and "OKAYOKAYOKAY PLEASE DON'T BITE MY FACE OFF." God, angry-boar-screaming is the WORST noise.

Martha promptly told me that unless my time with the Morrigan's paid off, I'm too nice to do that sort of thing.

Also, I know doves in particular are the sweet Lawful Good animals, but I can't find anything about turtledoves that isn't Christian, "The Twelve Days Of Christmas," or sites for Harry Turtledove. *facepalm*

edited 15th Aug '12 1:09:34 PM by Sharysa

I think they're monogamous, but I'm not sure. That's why it's two in the song, anyway; a pair of turtledoves given as a gift is an emblem of true love.

edited 15th Aug '12 2:23:52 PM by FurikoMaru

@Furiko: Hm, one of my books on Celtic mythology also has something of an obsession with trying to conflate Celtic gods and goddesses with Indian ones.

@Sharysa: as far as I know, purity and devotion. Apparently also known as Mourning Doves, for what it's worth.

edited 15th Aug '12 4:13:30 PM by LibrisDedita

Morning Doves like "Daytime," or Mourning Doves like "the ones that sound sad"? Although it explains why I thought she was a Mourning Dove, since they look very similar.

Also: Hanschen IS in fact a fox. My sister was like, "Ooh, a trickster! Try a game and beat him at it!" but I said, "Fuck that, it's been a week." So I took a bit of time before lunch and waited for him to come up, and I caught him and pinned him going "BITCH, TELL ME WHAT YOU ARE."

For a minute he was thrown off-guard because he didn't think I'd do that, but when I wouldn't let go he started making this UNBEARABLE "distressed fox" noise to try and shake me up. He eventually stopped and went "Okay, you got me." Weirdly enough, his fox-coat matches his human form's dark hair; that kind of threw me off until I found out that black mutations of the red fox do exist.

Why are they all either Cute, but Cacophonic animals or scare-you-shitless ones? The only ones who're cute AND don't make my ears bleed are Wendla and Melchior.

edited 15th Aug '12 4:15:59 PM by Sharysa

The latter, sorry. Can't spell today.

Okay then.

And RE Aryan/Celtic connections: Technically, the Celts DO have Aryan/Indian roots. They're just reallyreallyreallyreally far back.

In the same sense that all humans are Etheopian far enough back.

Also, what, you expected them to be pleasant animals?

edited 15th Aug '12 5:29:47 PM by Exelixi

Not quite a Pagan troper, but I'm watching Percy Jackson And The Olympians and I know more than a bit about Greek Mythology. The movie received a thoroughly middling critical response, so... cringing is imminent.

Oh man, I love Percy Jackson so much. Not necessarily the movie, but the book series.

That's why I'm watching the movie before the book.

Poseidon's entrance was quite slick. Also he is handsome and familiar-looking. If all the gods are like this I will be fairly entertained.

Edit: Is that Sean Bean as Zeus?!

edited 15th Aug '12 6:34:48 PM by Leradny

No, but the NOISES. Angry-boar-screaming, angry-bear-roaring, and distressed-fox-screaming are unpleasant in a very personal way, considering I need my hearing to sing.

Thank god it's not my LITERAL hearing.

Also, I have no idea how I can know all these random details that I didn't know beforehand. The taste of rowan-berries, Wendla's purring noise, Hanschen's screaming, Hanschen's black-fox-coat, and Hanschen being gay as an oldity-old detail of the trickster archetype.

edited 15th Aug '12 6:37:53 PM by Sharysa

Wow, they weren't kidding when they said the movie was full of eye-candy.

I wish I had friendly faces in my headspace that didn't just belong to me. I have the Smiling Vampire to keep the other monsters away when I'm scared, but that's kind of like using a yuki-onna to keep the cold out of your house.

Shall I continue with storytime, or is the joke over?

@Sharysa: yes, the Celts came out of roughly the same part of the world as the later migration of the Norse & Germanic people(s). It seems that something about that area throws off migrants. After all, the Roma are also from India — originally a Kali cult, it seems.

Story-time is good! It entertains me because I'm a bard and I need to read shitty stories as much as I read awesome things.

Yeah, the whole Proto-Indo-European thing. So many of those cultures have similar deities/myths/languages/yada yada yada.

I just can't bring myself to watch that movie or read the books. :(

I am kind of curious/interested in seeing "Gods Behaving Badly" when that comes out. Christopher Walken is playing Zeus.

Yeah. It's a comedy, if you couldn't tell.

edited 15th Aug '12 7:58:00 PM by Iulla

Okay. I was already frowning at how quickly Percy got over seeing his mother die, and now I don't care what sort of justification they try to use for Athena having a child. No more watching for me.

@Sharysa: I recall, once upon a time, a certain troper I was friends with said that for the most part he could divide gaming nerds into two groups; the ones who want to be rogues and the ones who want to be wizards.

So I told him I wanted to be Cacofonix.

Tsugi!

That's so cute how he calls it a creation myth, like someone did it on purpose or something. If I recall my Roger Lancellyn Green audiobooks correctly, in the beginning was Ganungagap (which I clearly cannot spell - the book has it as Ginnungagap), and then Muspellheim and Niflheim crashed into each other and sorta exploded in the middle into somewhere vaguely liveable, then Ymir passed out and his bodyparts had an orgy with each other and (surprise surprise) a cow, and voila, giants!

PUT DOWN THE TOLKEIN. IT IS KILLING YOUR CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS.

Seriously, in the next paragraph Odin and Borr go off to hunt their cousins and grandfather with some vague talk about how it's a struggle between good and evil. How about 'a struggle between the guy who's gonna win and the guys who're gonna lose', Mr Author?

I'm not as up on the earliest bits of Norse myth as I ought to be, but... did the other giants try to kill Bestla, or something? 'Cause if they did there's a case to be made that evil must be punished and all that, but if they didn't, all I see is a bunch of dudes who like to fight deciding to fight one another.

So blahdeblah, Ymir bleeds everyone dies, except Odin and his bros and Bergelmir and his wife, and Odin sets about building Midgard in the creepiest manner possible, but with such attention to detail and thrift that I can't help but admire it.

Here's something that bugs me about almost every creation myth; they always start out with a tiny cast of characters, until it comes time for someone to get married or something, and someone's wife comes out of fucking nowhere. This happened earlier in this story with Bestla, but now it's gotten to the point where I had to get that off my chest, because humans haven't been created yet and Odin's already putting a handsome youth and a pretty girl in charge of the chariots of the moon and sun respectively. Are these his eldest kids? His niece and nephew? The book doesn't elaborate.

So Bergelmir and his wife and their kids see the sun and moon and decide to wreck their cousin's shit for killing damn near all the family they had in the world, and they sic Skoll and Hati on the celestial bodies. I always kind of felt bad for these two; even though I used to have nightmares about them actually succeeding, the thought of them finally managing to swallow the sun and moon only for the world to end around them is kind of depressing, especially if you like normal wolves to begin with.

Because Odin is a dumbass who didn't refrigerate the corpse-bits properly, there are black and white maggots infesting the earth, whom he promptly divides into elves and drow. IIRC, black elves/dwarves are the coolest motherfuckers in the world, so I hope they come up again in this book.

Fuck it, I'm instituting a drinking game. Every time the author mentions new gods without introducing them, when he could just as easily have left them out since they don't end up adding anything to the anecdote at hand, take a shot.

tl;dr version, Odin breathes life into an Ash tree and an Elm tree by saying the words Ash and Elm, whoohoo, our ancestors be created out this bitch. Or at least mine are. Well, some of mine; I don't know how this overlaps with the story of whatever gods thought it'd be funny to inflict Celts and the Haudenosaunee on their neighbours.

Hmm... somehow that doesn't sound right to me. If Yggdrasil didn't exist before, how did everyone get around? It's sorta like the Sephirot, right? Connecting the various realms to one another? And if he did plant it, wouldn't that mean he'd had to have gone everywhere and mapped out where the roots and all were supposed to go, including the ones in Jotunnheim with his blood enemies? That's pretty impressive; I want to hear that story.

... am I wrong in thinking this is a huge oversimplification? Aren't the nine original runes and the nine charms what he spent nine days hanging on a tree - possibly this tree - to get? Or if I'm remembering incorrectly, then they have to be what he got from drinking from the well at the bottom of Yggdrasil. I'm pretty sure foreknowledge of Ragnarok was what he got from the LSD well, though, so the runes have to be the result of the hanging, otherwise I don't have a clue what he did that for. Norse-god-handling specialists, please weigh in.

Why is this author determined to limit the amount of awesome his book contains?

Black-and-white morality is for Romans! >: <

Not gonna lie, first thought that went through my mind was "she can do so much better." Well, whatever; none of my business who she sleeps with or how she raises her kid.

Also, maybe my education is lacking, but aside from being a real bishie, did Baldr ever do anything? Great is not the word I'd use to describe him. Is Loki's murder of him somehow the equivalent of Superboy-Prime punching reality - did it erase his significant contributions to the timeline aside from Skadi trying to force him to marry her (forgive me, my French keyboard settings are on the fritz, so I can't give her a little thd thing in honour of her coolness)?

- GO SIT IN THE CORNER, MR AUTHOR! The Morning Star and Loki are two different flavours of jerk. One tastes like cinnamon, the other like toothpaste and orange juice. Stop trying to make things convenient and easy to understand for your readers at the cost of accuracy!

-_- Treachery and chaos are not automatically evil. They're neutral forces that can be provoked or prompted by the good or evil in a person, or just from the universe getting bored. It just seems a little unfair to call a guy evil for not getting along with/fucking with a bunch of people who also kinda suck. That's like saying Marvin the Paranoid Android is mean for not volunteering to help any of the heroes in any way, or saying Dib should stop being so damned obsessed and socialise more. Yeah, it doesn't excuse their arrogance and cruelty, but the problem isn't that they're mean to assholes, the problem is that being around assholes has brought out the absolute worst in them. It's still their fault for doing bad things, of course, but I~ have a weirdly skewed sense of morality.

No doubt in part due to the fact that I had a massive crush on Loki as a little kid.

No fair, Yahtzee, I was here first, go back to reviewing video games!

Blahdeblah, mistletoeLokiHodrinferiorfakeGaeBolgshinyboyisdedded.

Oh, cold. I didn't know that part about Thokk and the not-weeping thing, but I can't say it didn't make me giggle. How deliciously high school. That's what I love about this prick; I grow up, he stays the same age.

So they chain him down, and here the book gets a little fanfic-y, 'cause I thought he stayed in his daughter's realm for a damn long time and was only let out to captain the Nailfarer, but the book says he escapes to Jotunnheim.

Again, the book tells the tale of Ragnarok as though it's already come to pass. It always sort of mystified me as a kid why the final boss for each character was so lacking in the predictability I'd been accustomed to; I mean, Freyr fights Surt? That's almost as weird as Lee vs. Gaara. Now that I read over the matchups again, I have to wonder if they aren't the result of four or five different religions amalgamating their end-of-the-world mythos into one bitchin' crossover.

The next chapter's just an excerpt from The Poetic Edda about hanging for wisdom and a short paragraph with a shoutout to The Hanged Man. Would've been nice if this book had actually mentioned Odin doing all that so this wouldn't come out of left field.

As always, corrections and clarifications are welcome.

edited 16th Aug '12 11:32:09 AM by FurikoMaru

Heck yes. I'm not a Norse person, but the myths are still damn fascinating.

Odin: Okay, the taproot is the main track and if you haven't been on Yggdrasil before, just use that to get to Hel (the place). Hel (the goddess) should give you directions if you need a pointer. Not gonna lie: The smaller the roots are, the less... NICE your destination's gonna be. But if for some reason you NEED to go there, just keep a vicegrip on your bags and make sure your sword's enchanted to deal with the giants.

Yes, indeed. One of the Norse followers at my other forum has the translated quote from the original saga (which is very vivid, btw), and it's kind of hard to forget that sort of thing.

For the same reason goths see the Morrigan as a TRAGIC MISUNDERSTOOD LONER.

To my knowledge, Balder was specifically the god of beauty. So yeah, being nice and looking pretty was his full-time job.

And just for a dig at my feminist side, I WOULD LOVE THAT FUCKING JOB.

edited 16th Aug '12 9:43:13 AM by Sharysa

I guess that makes sense considering who his mom is, but that's so lame! No one wants Princess Serenity, we want Sailor Moon!

... ooh, crossover fic ahoy! You wouldn't even have to change much; Makoto is essentially a Thor who can cook and Ami could easily fill Hermod's role.

Also, thank you for inadvertently showing me a typo I left in. I'll go fix that.

edited 16th Aug '12 11:23:10 AM by FurikoMaru