Complete Monsters

Perfectly true. You could, of course, designate to each of those terms some real world quality or value, but that would be inevitably arbitrary.

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That's why it's in the form of a question, Fighteer. Someone's idea of what constitutes redeeming values may not match anothers. Saladofstones thinks someone is a complete monster for lashing out at an elderly child molester, whereas I think it's unfortunate but not really indicative of anything by itself except victimization.

The question is, "Can Complete Monsters exist in Real Life?" I have given two answers why not: first, that CM is a trope and, since tropes don't exist in real life, neither do CM's. Second, that what constitutes a CM is inherently subjective and since there is no objective way to measure it, it only exists in people's interpretations, not the facts.

Edit: If the question were, "Do some people think of other people as Complete Monsters in Real Life?" then the answer would clearly be yes. Then one could meaningfully ask why.

edited 25th Jan '11 1:19:41 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

It's not as simple as that. You can say that there are no such things are real robot girls in real life, and there aren't. As in, no sentient girls that are machines. There are people that can be considered knight templars as well. So why not complete monsters? Just because it's a trope does not mean a real example cannot exist. You can only look at people who actually exist and say 'Do you think this person is a complete monster?'

As a matter of fact, I don't think you actually can find a complete monster in real life. I don't think even the multiple genocidal dictators are. That does not mean they're barred from existence.

edited 25th Jan '11 5:22:10 PM by Arha

Van Der Sloot is a Complete Monster, does anyone have objections to this one?

Who is that?

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murderous bastard. Kidnapped, raped, tortured, then killed a girl possibly multiple girls over the years. Nobody even knows where her body is.

edited 25th Jan '11 5:59:48 PM by NickTheSwing

Van der Sloot is the Natalie Holloway suspect. Real piece of work, apparently. But he can't be a CM, because nobody is completely evil.

edited 25th Jan '11 7:57:41 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

@OP: Can monsters exist? Oh hell yes they can. One of the reasons that myth was developed by humans was to teach children that monsters can meet a sticky end, and you can make it happen.

Which has suffered Memetic Mutation in American society to the point where vigilantes are idolized in our media, but whatever...

Can a Complete Monster exist? yes and no. Pick any person on the planet, and they've likely got a list of candidates. But those same people are just as likely to be revered as heroes (or at least have their actions justified) somewhere else.

Point? Morality, being a construct of society (and a pretty paper-thin one at that) is subjective...so a Complete Monster cannot be universally defined.

Anyone who gives Hitler as an example will be shot.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Which then begs the question: What is a Complete Hero?  ^*

♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥

^ I don't think you can have a complete hero any more than a complete monster. A hero needs to be essentially human, and to be human requires a degree of selfishness. And what's better, to be the knight in shining armor, or to be the pragmatist that kills people?

^^ I was going to give Hitler as an example of someone that I still don't think is a complete monster, but I went for genocidal dictator instead.

^^^ And basically, yes. I don't believe anyone is completely evil

well, Vandy's mom says he is nice to animals...

yep, not a Complete Monster.

he will kill me if he ever breaks out for that nickname...its still funny.

Don't forget a complete monster exists and having one nice trait doesn't fix it.

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.

Who here would even want to try to rehabilitate Mengele? I also put up the Baby P murderer as an example.

Also, I read this yesterday and it literally made me want to vomit. This article about an art exhibit in Zimbabwe showcasing artists' responses to war crimes, is simply astonishing for the paragraph that begins "She was twelve years old." Art Exhibit Stirs Up the Ghosts of Zimbabwe’s Past

I have heard similar stories from classmates whose parents survived the Khmer Rouge. The fact that there are laws of war shows that even in frenzied fighting, there are actions that will not be excused, and in today's world, will have you charged with crimes against humanity.

edited 26th Jan '11 2:49:23 PM by Freekippers

Actually, salad, one nice trait does fix it. A Complete Monster can't have any redeeming qualities. Kindness to animals counts.

Wasn't Mengele really nice to that guy who found out he might be his son?

edited 26th Jan '11 3:19:44 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

People with some sort of anti-social disorder might be considered Complete Monsters. Most people who do terrible things tend to justify it. So in their mind they are not Complete Monsters.

edited 26th Jan '11 3:32:33 PM by snailbait

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time

If they have a disorder, then they are mentally ill and thus not eligible for the "no excuse" part.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I'd agree with that.

"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time

I'd say that a complete monster is someone who the author specifically made to be hated and reviled by the readers.

He who fights bronies should see to itthat he himself does not become a brony. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, Pinkie Pie gazes Also

I don't think that the author has the absolute authority, however, since the author could intend for a character to be a complete monster but because of how the story is written, the character is sympathetic or appears to have a philosophy beyond just wanting to cause pain.

Well he's talking about WWII when the Chinese bomb pearl harbor and they commuted suicide by running their planes into the ship.

I'd certainly consider it, since in my eyes, For Science! disqualifies someone from Complete Monsterdom. The thing is, I'm not sure if in Mengele's specific case, For Science! genuinely applied, or if it was just a facade for For the Evulz. I'm fairly confident, on the other hand, that For Science! did apply to Unit 731.

of course it is subjective and it isn't universal. BUT there are some people with a general consensus that says they were in fact, a Complete Monster, for instance, the people(and Neo-Nazis don't count as they're bias) on the entire planet who do not think Hitler was a monster can probably be counted on one hand. it is a massivly stupid idea that there is no such thing as a Complete Monster in Real Life, they exist, accept it.

Moral relativism runs on Appeal to Force through Appeal to Popularity, Tongpu. You should see that.

@OP,

Are there complete monsters? I dunno. There is definitely a point where you lose your shot at redemption, however, and it's far before any "complete" monster point...

I am now known as Flyboy.

I don't see what that has to do with my post.