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Headscratchers: Puella Magi Madoka Magica The Movie: Rebellion
  • If I understood correctly, the whole Magical Girl system and Incubators are now under Homura's full control and she has some major benefits from it - mainly, Homura is able to gain the "energy" from despairing Magical girls instead of QB. How the heck does it work? And what's with Entropy?
    • Even without witches as an outlet, the absurd laws of physics that created them still exists, and thus in accordance with the Law of Conservation of Despair, demons form from the emotions of mankind. Magical Girls now fight these demons and extract power from defeating them.
      • Well, it seems Homura doesn't give a damn about entropy. She uses all her power to make sure that Madoka will be "happy" as a "normal teenage girl" and forget about ever being a goddess, where do you see a place for fighting heat death?. But i'm pretty sure that it won't work forever and something MUST go awry, so I expect Season 2. And since we are talking about Homura new responsibilities...
      • Homura's love affected the entire universe. Presumably, it's now either contained in a barrier of unprecedented strength or is otherwise so throughly suffused with magic that it spits on laws of physics.
      • Alternatively: The Stinger shows us the body of an Incubator looking thoroughly dead. Whilst there are millions of explanations for that sight, one is in the the Homuinverse, she uses the Incubators as a sort of AC adaptor for despair - she forces all of the world's despair into and out through them to counteract entropy, maybe with a crossover in between the Nightmares that Homulily made in her barrier and Madokami's magical girl Valhalla concept.
      • Homura said that she had to take care of the demons, with Kyubey's "help", at the end of the movie. Take of that what you will.

  • ...what about those countless Magical Girls which were supposed to be purified and brought to "Heaven" after they overload their Soul gem? Is it now Homura's job to cleanse them? Or is it done some other way?
    • Laws of physics have been restructured so that it happens naturally.
    • ...This troper assumes Homura doesn't care about them, considering she's the Devil and wouldn't want to maintain a Valhalla when she has a corporeal avatar to watch over Madoka. Cue Fridge Horror.
      • Wait, but if nobody is taking care of the soul gems that means that girls can turn into witches again! Does that mean that Homura (albeit unintentionally) brought back the Witch system?
    • Nope, Homura maintained the cycle, she just took the part that was Madoka out of it. Soul Gems still get cleansed but its by a physical force instead of a kind little god.
    • Homura yanked Madoka out of the Law Of The Cycle. It's uncertain exactly what that means; one of the witches she already recovered might take over, it might happen automatically, or it might be broken and fall apart. For the time being, Homura seems to not concern herself with this but it remains to be seen whether she was Genre Savvy enough to take care of a highly obvious issue.
      • Except... how can one just "remove" Madoka from the Law of the Cycle? Madoka IS the Law of the Cycle. Her deal was to erase all the Witches with her own hands. You cannot have a Law of the Cycles without Madoka. I for one suspect Homura may think she's got the system working, but it's going to come crashing down at any moment.
      • More specifically, Madoka's wish was to erase the existence of all witches; she never specified she she wanted to be the one to do it, personally, herself. This tropes speculates that because of how wishes tend to bite back at the magical girls who cast them, when Madoka made her wish, the biggest retribution the universe could think of her was to make her disappear and become the Law of Cycles. Homura also only broke off a part of this Law, which is supposedly Madoka at the end. She was ripped apart, and Madoka the schoolgirl and Madoka the Law of Cycles are now two different things.
      • No, Madoka specifically says:
        Madoka: I want to erase every witch. Every witch from every world, from the past and future. With my own hands.
      • Note that a) Madoka still appears to be deeply connected to the Law, if the last part of the movie is any indication, and b) since Homura somehow 'extracted' her from it and left the rest of the existing Law behind, it's probably the remnants of Madoka's magic making the witches vanish. Madoka's power still being the driving force combined with said power still being at least partially tied to Madoka in some way might be enough for it to count as still being 'with her own hands,' if only on a relatively blatant technicality. That's the only thing I can really think of to justify it without using facts we aren't already fairly sure of.
    • Or maybe Madoka already destroyed the witches. She already exists in all times, and all spaces, and all worlds, so the cosmic interpretation of Madoka (the law of cycles) already dealt with the witches, being, you know, a natural law that always existed. The law of cycles still exists because as of that moment, it is still being maintained by Madoka.
    • Madoka and Madokami are now different people. It's easiest to think of her like this: Ultimate Madoka is God. Madoka, with the potential for godlike power but living a mortal life in a mortal body, is Christ. They're two parts of the same whole; Ultimate Madoka still exists and is still doing her thing, but since the system is rewritten, she doesn't have anything to actually do.

  • How was Kyubey's plan was supposed to work? Was he planning to conquer the world with Madoka's power?
    • No. Cosmo-forming. To prevent the universe from decaying into a state unsuitable for life. Or so he tells a little girl; the real answer is probably more complicated.
    • A transcript makes things much more clearer : "If it can be observed , then it can be interfered with. If It can be interefered with, then it can be controled. One day we will be able to fully strip the power of 'law of cycles'. That way Magic girl will become witches once again, energy collection on a higher level then can be expected. The conversion of energy from hope to despair will be of a level beyond our expectation thus far.From the process of you turning into witches, its value will then be shown."
      • A brilliant line, by the way. While probably lifted from somewhere else, it's a very bold theological statement that explains the lack of observable divine intervention with quantum physics: If someone can gain definite proof of divine power, they may eventually claim it.

  • Is Homura's "new world" a fully rewritten universe (like the one Madoka made) or is it simply a witch barrier, only on a MUCH BIGGER scale?
    • It's honestly hard to say. Homura is technically not a Witch, but most accounts seem to describe her as indeed creating a barrier that expands to fit the entire universe, plus her "Dark Orb" seems to resemble a Soul Gem a lot. Kyouko is seen feeding some of her witch familiars in the ending, and Homura doesn't seem to have absolute control over her reality (she had to wipe Sayaka's memories when she found out she still remembered and didn't eliminate Madoka's god powers completely), so one might say that the new world is the universe trapped inside a witch barrier.
    • Something I noticed on a second watching: the moon has a purple aura around it, like the fuel truck and the giant SHAFT missiles from episode 11. It might be that the universe wasn't so much destroyed and then remade the way Homura wanted, it's more like Homura used her reinforcement/parakinesis powers to rearrange the universe fourth-dimensionally. If Homura had simply remade the universe from the ground up instead of just moving the parts around, Madoka, having been born and lived a mortal life, wouldn't need to be sealed away because in that universe, Ultimate Madoka wouldn't exist, and Homura would ascend to the higher plane of existence that Madoka would have to vacate. Instead, Homura exists on Earth and can control reality at her whim, because she has the whole shebang on the Dark Orb's leash.

  • How did Nagisa/Bebe/Charlotte came into the picture? If the illusion world is made of Homura's memories, then Charlotte should only exist as a witch that killed Mami (and Homura indeed remembers that). And if the magical girls inside the illusion world are the ones that were sucked into it from the outside world, than Nagisa shouldn't exist either!
    • It's just fan service.
    • Actually, this has been answered - as opposed to Mami and Kyouko, who were sucked into Homura's barrier, Madoka entered Homura's Soul Gem world of her own free will and brought real-world Nagisa and Sayaka along with her as back-up, entrusting her memories and powers to them in order to fool Kyubey. So yeah, partly fanservice, but fanservice with a function within the plot!

  • Why fans have so many issues with God-mode Homura? With few adjustments (season two maybe?) we could have a perfectly balanced system - with Madoka as the embodiment of the girls hope and Homura as the embodiment of despair. Homura is bearing the burden of the girls despair and Madoka is giving them hope for the MG heaven or whatever. Homura is happy and Madoka has much less work to do (carrying the countless MG despair while still being the embodiment of hope is quite an arduous task). And since Homura has the incubators completely under her thumb, this time they wouldn't cause any trouble. The only thing that is left is who would take care of the entropy issue.
    • Except that Homura has explicitly made it clear that she would damn the world to give Madoka a normal life and plans to suppress Madoka's god powers and the other Puella Magi's memories as long as she can, no compromises. Throw in the implications in The Stinger that she may be going mad from her Face-Heel Turn, and suddenly a conclusion with the two ruling together seems far off.
      • Actually, there's another implication to The Stinger than just "she's going mad" that one can take away from it. She has put everyone who matters into situations which mirror her own pre-god mode in some way. In Madoka's case, Homura wants her to know and understand why she became what she did, to experience it as opposed to just 'seeing' it from afar like before. Or being told she's very special in some way or has a duty or expectation of her that requires the loss of her identity. At this point, the only way to figure things out with Madoka/the world is for them to be on a completely equal footing (as opposed to being human/magical girl or magical girl/god, or not remembering or remembering, and experiences and etc.) - which, before, was just not possible. Plus, Homura's new awakening/subsequent power took out the Incubators. Now they can't interfere and what will happen afterwards between Homura and Madoka is truly unknown, and she's prepared for the worst. Indeed, Homura's left us and herself with a real cliff-hanger.

  • If in the Illusion world every girl lives her perfect, happy life, why is Sayaka not with Kyosuke?
    • Probably for the same reason Kyouko's living with her, if you know what I mean.
    • Since the illusion world is created by Homura, it's natural that this wouldn't play out since Homura probably does not know how much Kyosuke means to Sayaka. In other words, the idealized conditions are established by what Homura thinks would be the Puella Magi's ideal lives. Hence why Kyouko is living with Sayaka instead of living with her family and Mami is still an orphan, albeit a happy one.
    • It's also possible that because of Sayaka now being wiser and more experienced due to her memories of the other timelines and her status as a 'secretary' of Madoka, she still deeply loves Kyousuke but also understands that said love and her desire for said love to be returned does not need to be her top priority, and that he just doesn't truly return her feelings. Also, given that she knows exactly what's going on in half-Witch!Homura's barrier, she might not be affected by that aspect of it. She certainly kept her memories, at least, because of Madoka (as far as I know). I could be wrong though.
    • Word of God has stated, that even if Sayaka got together with Kyosuke, she wouldn'be happy with him. So maybe she's living what would be really her happy life, not what she thought would be.
    • Based on this and the series' ending, the course of human events can't be changed very much without drastically altering the current situation. Madoka's wish rewrites the universe, but we see (through her interactions with Sayaka, natch) that Sayaka's death could have been retconned, but that would mean negating a future where Kyosuke's hand was healed. Showing Kyosuke and Hitomi together while Sayaka still alive is a really good way to show exactly how much Homura doesn't care about the world: Homura, having rewritten the universe, has disregarded all the rules that would make Madoka sad, including the one that says Sayaka must die or become a witch in every timeline where she makes a contract.

  • I got massively confused at the ending : Homura has separated the normal Madoka from the goddess Madoka - does that mean that we now have the regular Madoka without memories of being a goddess and a goddess Madoka without memories she was a regular girl? Or is it done some other way round? And how exactly does the magical girls system work now? Are they still dying/vanishing/ascending to a higher place/etc. after using too much magic? And with who does they fight with? Can Kyubey still contract new girls? (Geez, looks like season two is a must!)
    • Since Incubators are now forced by Homura to eliminate all witches/demons/whatever they are fighting now themselves, i think Magical girls are no longer needed or at least, not as much as before thus there is no reason to contract new girls. And if the girls are no longer forced to fight evil beings, there is a tiny chance of them dying because of magic overuse - so basically, Law of cycles isn't as important as it was earlier. Actually, I'm not even sure if Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami and possibly Nagisa are still Magical Girls or not. And for the double Madoka - that's a valid theory. Homura somehow split the "Human Madoka" and the "Goddess Madoka" apart - which would mean that the Law of cycles still works somehow, only that she no longer remembers she was once a typical schoolgirl (but should still know what her duties are). The same with regular Madoka. The main point of Homuniverse would be then preventing the regular Madoka from ever meeting the Law of Cycles (and the other way round). Which, taking into account my first theory about much smaller significance of the Law of the cycles now, shouldn't be that hard. Does that sound at least a bit coherently?
      • Sayaka, Kyoko and Mami still have their contract rings (didn't notice whether Nagisa had one as well) so they are probably still magical girls.

  • What dance style does Homura and Madoka use in their transformation sequences? I got that Kyouko has a kind of oriental dancing theme (indie?), Sayaka's theme is hiphop, Mami's figure skating (can that be called a dance style?) but i have no idea what theme has Homura and Madoka - some kind of pop?
    • Homura's looked to be ballet foreshadowing her familiars' theme. Madoka's being Japanese pop idol style to emphasize cuteness.
    • I believe that the following styles were used:
      • Mami: Figure Skating/Ballet
      • It's definitely figure skating.
      • Kyouko: Middle-Eastern (Symbolized by the multiple arms, most likely Shiva)
      • Shiva is a Hindu deity. Kyouko's dance is sort of a magically-enhanced hypnotic tribal thing without belly-dancing elements.
      • Sayaka: Break-dancing/hip-hop
      • Homura: Interpretive
      • Homura's is ballet, particularly the folding pose just before the end of her transformation is reminiscent of "death" poses in tragic ballet stories.
      • Madoka: J-pop

  • What's with Charlotte being called "Bebe"? It's not like her name's been retconned - when Homura recalls the witches, you can still sort of see runes saying "Charlotte" when she appears in one of the memory circle things. I did see some people saying that Bebe is Nagisa's real name, but that's not mentioned anywhere in the movie. I know Inu Curry did request that she be called Bebe, but I dunno. It's never properly addressed.
    • All there in the pamflet, a strange rule decided by Inu Curry is that a witch never says her true name. Even if someone can decode their accompanying runes or otherwise knows their name, they still won't ever say it themselves. So they just call her Bebe.

  • What makes Homucifer a God of Evil, per-say? Maybe this is just coming from someone who plays the crap out of Megaten (and is a Chaos Supporter), but this comes across as more Law (Madoka) vs. Chaos (Homura): the needs of the many vs the needs of the few, as opposed to Good vs. Evil. Besides acting a little loopy near the end, Homura didn't do anything I'd remotely consider "Evil": hell, she went out of her way to give Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami and Nagisa happy lives as well. Both her and Madoka's systems work and apparently work well: they just have different approaches and neither seems perfect. So what makes Homura's actions evil?
    • There's actually some good evidence that Homura isn't truly evil. Apparently, the look in her eyes at the end indicate that she doesn't truly enjoy what she did. She does seem to legitimately want the others to be happy. Heck, there's even a Zero-Approval Gambit theory going around saying that Homura's true objective is the destruction of the entire magical girl system, which requires Homura to play the villain in order to protect Madoka once and for all.
    • If you are a Megaten fan and a Chaos supporter, how could you not see, that what Homucifer and YHWH do exactly the same thing? Sure, the former wants to control only one girl's life, and trampling on the free will of everyone else in cosmos is more like an afterthought (make no mistake, happiness born from reality retcons and memory wipes is exactly that, heck Homucifer doesn't even know enough about what is truly important for the girls to make them happy; that before considering the possibility that what she's done with them is actually meant to be a setup for tormenting them slowly, which is suggested by her obvious acts of petty malice), but the difference lies only in target scale, not methods. Or, to put it another way, treating another person as well, not person, but an object, whose own wishes need not to be considered, and who must be made to conform to whatever you think is good for her, by force if necessary, is a textbook definition of evil.
    • Personally, I think Homura is a God of Evil in term of as a conscious antithesis of Madoka, which actually puts her in a Jerkass Gods class instead of pure evil if not for her intention to play the "evil" part. I disagree with above troper that says she's evil because she oppresses; Madoka also did the cosmic retcon and memory wipe herself at the series' finale, which automatically makes people (especially her parents) happy by ignorance too. What makes her different from Madoka is that she changes the rule as she pleases if the result isn't according to how she wishes it (and that she gloats over it). I would say that all sides fighting in the climax of this movie are all Law route, but the law is depending on whose law and from that, we see that Homura is evil through Character Alignment. Homura's world is far from anarchy after all, but not above tyranny.
    • Agreement. Homura's selfish to be sure, but being selfish isn't necessarily evil: she's a Jerkass God with a Heart of Gold. Rather fitting for her personality in the series, really. She's using her powers to get what she wants, but she's being remarkably reasonable about it. It's not like she's a Yandere who turned the entire world into a 1984-ish Dystopia forced to worship Madoka as God/Big Brother/The God-Emperor of Mankind, building Madokapolis and grandiose Madoka statues with slave labor, establishing an Inquisition to brutally destroy heretics who dare blaspheme against the Cutieness of the God-Empress Madoka, and tying up Madoka herself in an And I Must Scream-state of perpetual bondage, on life support yet with no rights of privacy whatsoever in a padded cell watched by CCTV cameras 24/7, just so she would never, ever kill herself. She's given Madoka free will, and seems only willing to interfere if Madoka tries to actually put herself under the bus.

      I think the big problem is that we're using Madoka as the yardstick for good and reasonable. Doing that, yes, Homura's acts come across as pretty unnerving. But it's important to bear in mind that Madoka is messianic in her selflessness and her self-sacrificing nature for the sake of the greater good. Holding her as the standard of morality is lofty, but ultimately unrealistic. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23. Madoka is inhumanly selfless to the point that it makes Jesus H. Christ Himself (The Messianic Archetype, but who can't tolerate people not worshipping Him lest they be burned forever) seem like a narcissistic asshole in comparison. Homura is humanly selfish. I mean, what are her crimes? Rewriting history to favor her goals? It's Homura Akemi. It's what she DOES. People didn't have a problem with her doing it in the series. Heck, that's pretty much what Madoka did when she enacted the Law of Cycles as stated above. Poking the poodle by breaking a teacup and wasting an apple? Petty, in-character when you think about it, and offset by her Pet the Dog moments giving Sayaka and Kyouko a second chance at happiness and giving Mami the companion she was desperate for in Nagisa. Oh yeah, and healing Kyosuke's hand. She had no reason to do that besides the fact it's what someone she dislikes wanted. That's REALLY big of her.

      Overthrowing the Law of Cycles? Again, that's based off the notion of Madoka as the yardstick to measure what is 'good': Homura's system doesn't seem to have any glaring flaws for the moment. I mean, it's not the Witch System. It may be opposed to the Law of Cycles, but that doesn't make it 'evil' in its own right. Hell, I like it better to be honest. From a moral standpoint, Homura's actions don't seem to come across as inherently 'wrong' but inherently ''human''. Opposed to the Messianic Archetype figure that is Madoka Kaname? Yeah. Selfish compared to her? Hell yeah. But evil? Well, compared to someone like Madoka, we're ALL pretty much self-serving bastards, aren't we? I think what it comes down to is shock: shock that Madoka's beautifully selfless act was opposed and overthrown by a character that we all trusted, for an admittedly self-serving reason, and we've let that color our opinion on it. Think on this: rather than the Law of Cycles, what if Madoka had enacted Homura's system at the end of the series? What would we think of it?
    • While I don't see Homura as necessarily evil, per say, I do see her Pet the Dog moments under a bit more cynical light considering she did disregard the teacup and apple. The softest interpretation is that giving Mami and Kyouko happy lives is a bit of a off-hand whatever; it would probably be easiest for her to model her new world based off her illusion one. The 'eek' interpretation? As long as those two are happy, they're not going to notice anything off about the world, nor will they try to change it. That's what happened in the illusion world. And there is no effin' way that the new world will not have major, major issues with it.
    • I'm in thorough agreement that the new system will have issues that will be the backdrop to the inevitable season 2. But I'm not quite getting what you're saying about keeping the others happy so they don't fight back. I guess the big question regarding is "how in the fuck would they do that?" Homura is capable of rewriting history on a whim, erasing memories, taking command of the infrastructure of an advanced alien race, and SUPPRESSING GODOKA'S POWERS. What kind of threat would Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami and Nagisa pose that would have Homura worried enough to try to keep them hopped up on happy?
      • Homura doesn't seem to have absolute power; Sayaka shouldn't have remembered anything to begin with, and right before when Homura erases her memory, Sayaka swears to keep some of her original feelings. Not to mention that it looks like Homura's going to have to periodically check on Madoka to make sure the Goddess powers stay suppressed. If Sayaka (any maybe some others) manage to remember but play along for awhile (like she and Nagisa did in the illusion world), they might figure out a way to fight back. And since Homura is physically on earth, she can't see everything going on at once and something might slip past her.
      • It's notable that what Homura does essentially robs magical girls of their meaning and their agency in the universe. In Madoka's system, magical girls make wishes for themselves, then fight the wraiths that arise from human suffering. In exchange for a miracle, they protect humanity, and when they die, they earn a final reward in a magical girl Valhalla where they become agents of Ultimate Madoka, instead of whatever else comes next for ordinary humans. In Homura's system, magical girls have nothing to fight and nothing to die for (as evidenced with Sayaka and Nagisa, who are alive and well, having never been led away by the Law of Cycles and thus never having depleted their magic). Based on what we know about how hope and despair act as energy in this universe, Homura is basically building a false paradise: it's the world that would make her happiest, but even in the most generous interpretation of how she's handling curses now (that either she purges them directly, or forces the Incubators to clean it up themselves) it's still going to damn the universe because the source of the increasing distortions will never be removed. And since we may not ever get any new magical girls, because Homura's selfish love won't allow her to grant any new wishes for anyone but herself, the whole thing may turn out to be pretty grim indeed.
      • In the first place, the incubators' goal wasn't to "remove the distortion", as you said, that's physically impossible, but to slow down the change in entropy. New magical girls most probably will still be created, seeing as the energy gathered to fight the negative change in entropy came mostly from the girls themselves in the old universe, more precisely, it, in my opinion, came mostly from the very moment the magical girls turned into witches, aside from the moment the girls made the contracts, the accumulation of energy during the two states of magical girl and witch and the added despair from the human victims (a possible explanation for this in layman's term is best expressed by this formula: deltaG = deltaH - T*deltaS. Delta G is the change in the degrees of freedom. Delta H is the change in enthalphy, which here, for simplicity's sake, could be roughly interpreted as heat. If deltaG of a process is smaller than 0 then the process happens. Based on this, I made an educated guess. If you could somehow rig deltaS to be super positive, an impossible feat, enough to win against the positive change in enthalphy - the epitome of the universe's heat death, then deltaG of the "death" process would be positive, as in, the universe's death would be delayed. As a result, the best Homura, Madoka and the incubators could do was to slow down the change in entropy, making it less negative). In the Madoka's universe, the magical girls still existed, but they disappeared just as they were on the verge of witchification, the demons were presumably the physical manifestation of humanity's despair. This means that the only sources of energy to fight entropy were the energy gathered at the moment the girls made the contracts, the accumulation during the magical girl state and the destruction of the demons. The main driving force behind the incubators' old means of fighting entropy - energy that was supposed to be gathered when the girls turned into witches were now gone, thus lowering the effectiveness of the process significantly. However, the girls still were the fuel of the whole machine, so to speak, albeit with more human rights than before. Now, in the Homuniverse, magical girls also exist for whatever reason. Because we don't know the exact state of the Homuniverse, we can only speculate using the world inside Homulilly as a basis. While the existence of the dream world must obey the thermodynamic laws of Madoka's universe, inside the dream world itself though, those laws were thrown aside in favour of the ultimate law of that world: Homura's emotional state. As such, the existence of magical girls inside that world was rather unnecessary in terms of thermodynamics. Considering the return rate of fighting nightmares, it was unlikely that the dream world got anything out of the deal. Thus, the only reason the concept magical girls existed was that Homura willed them to do. The interesting part about the dream world was its other fuel source: the nightmare themselves. While both demons and nightmares came from humanity's sufferings, since the origin of demons were unknown, we can assume that they came from actual despair instead of some more mundane emotions of teenage girls who wanted their boyfriends to spend more time with them. This means that hypothetically, in a world with both demons and nightmares, as was presumably in the Homuniverse (Homura was explicitly shown to "remake" the Madoka universe by encasing it within her barrier. In reality, she only edited it a bit instead of destroying the previous universe and creating a whole new one with one's own set of laws like Madoka did.), between the nightmares - direct products of human negative emotions, even the slightly negative ones, and the demons - indirect products of humanity's sufferings, the nightmares would outnumber the demons. For a magical girl, it would be more profitable to fight nightmares instead of demons. While the productive energy gathered to fight entropy per nightmare was infinitely smaller than the energy gathered per demon or witchification, the number of possible nightmares could cover the difference and most probably even yield more productive energy per capital than the other 2 methods. With the only problem that came with nightmares being their immense destructive capacity (I mean, one shot from their canon hands can destroy a building!) temporarily settled by the magical girls, the hypothetical Homuniverse could be said to be almost stable and definitely more cost-effective than the other 2 models. In this model, the magical girls' role and meaning would be the only and last line of defense against nightmares, the protectors of humanity from total destruction instead of sacrifices, of mere fuel for the universe. This made sense, since it would be in Homura's best interest to create a universe as stable and content as possible without extensive incubator interventions, just as it's in the capitalists' best interest to improve both productivity, all in the name of profit, and the living condition of the work force, all in the name of FURTHER profit, from a Marxist's point of view. Really, the only problems with the Homuniverse were that it was made by trampling on Madoka's sacrifices, imprisoning her in a gilded cage, Homura's depression and possible insanity. As a general rule, emotionally and/or mentally unstable people shouldn't become absolute dictators. That tends to end badly.
  • She's abducted the object of her affections and is forcing her to live her life the way Homura wants it lived, even going so far as to threaten her if she tries to make a choice Homura disagrees with - telling her, paraphrased, "If you insist on putting duty before your happiness, you and I will become enemies." Homura has effectively put Madoka in a box in which she has free will to do whatever she wants as long as she doesn't do anything Homura doesn't want her to do. She's keeping Madoka in a gilded cage and convincing herself that it's for her own good, but it's not; it's for Homura's good, because as much as she lies to herself and says she's making Madoka happy, when you cut off a bird's wings, it will never be happy no matter how much birdseed you throw at it. She's stripped Madoka of the right to choose, under the pretense that she'll be happier if she just does what Homura wants her to do instead of what Madoka wants to do. Seriously, this is classic domination abuse.
    • Considering Madoka doesn't remember anything, Homura seems to be acknowledging that their ideologies will inevitably clash more than threatening her, especially considering the phrasing ("Is that so...if that's the case, someday you might become my enemy") and what she says in the very next breath: 'she doesn't care' if that happens, so long as Madoka is happy. She's acknowledging that the world she created will inevitably explode in her face. But I suppose it could be interpreted both ways.
      • Except for the part where the Incubators have made a goal of controlling Madoka and bringing back the witch system? Homura didn't just arbitrarily kidnap Madoka because she only wants to own her like a pet, she kidnapped Madoka and re-ordered the universe because that was her only means of keeping her from being enslaved by Kyubey, which is explicitly what Kyubey wants, and keeping her from being isolated and suffering forever, which is what she thinks Madoka's life as the Law of Cycles is like (based on a misunderstanding, but that's still what she believes). By the end of the story, Homura is being consumed by guilt because she knows that what she's doing is wrong, but she's still doing it, because she believes it's necessary, and she's right. Madoka's Wish didn't change anything for the Incubators or their goals, and Homura knows better than anyone how ruthless they are. Yes, what she did was wrong, but what was the alternative? Letting Kyubey and his people eventually control the Law of Cycles and bring back the Witches, thus enslaving or destroying Madoka and consuming the souls of countless others until someone else manages to find a way to change the rules, which won't matter because the Incubators will already have the means and knowledge to control God. Yes, Madoka is in a gilded cage and that is Homura's fault, but that's why it's called Rebellion and not For the Evulz.

  • Something also pertaining to Charlotte/Bebe - why was her design changed? Oktavia and the rest of the returning familiars pretty much stayed the same, so why does Bebe's face look so different from the original Charlotte's?
    • Likely for the sake of making her more expressive. It would be a lot harder for her original design to emote to the same degree she was able to in the movie: she didn't even have eyes as much as blank black holes to begin with.
    • If you take a good look at Oktavia, her design is changed too; Her hood become dominant blue instead of green in Ep 8-9 and red in Ep 10. Her armor also loses many of its details and it looks like there are five violin strings decorating the frontal torso. So my guess is that Witches have their basic design determined, but change the other details because of their magical girls' differences when they fall to disgrace.
    • Some of the familiars changed, too, probably because it was Sayaka and Nagisa in control of them as opposed to their original witches. For example, the Anthonies, rather than having their lower bodies adorned with butterfly wings, have fish fins just like Oktavia's tail.

  • How did Mami chase down Homura prior to the duel? She seemed to be maintaining the time-freeze and went a fair distance, and Mami hadn't gotten the ribbon wrapped around her.
    • Mami already has her ribbon wrapped around Homura since the tea party; watch as she walks pass Homura and you'll see her ribbon trailing behind. She just makes the ribbon invisible or dematerializes it somewhat to avoid Homura noticing and shooting the ribbon off.

  • Where in the world did Homura get all this power? Madoka only managed universe-restructuring levels of power because of Homura's time travel shenanigans compounding her "karmic destiny". Kyubey made it pretty clear that Madoka's potential was unique and far, far beyond anything it had ever seen before. Homura herself always seemed to be rather average in terms of actual magical power. Is it just a consequence of turning into this Dark Magical Girl/Demon thing she's become? And if that's the case, could any Magical Girl who achieved the same gain the same enormous power boost?
    • Probably some kind of combination between The Power of Love, being the personal chosen of Madoka, having been pushed to the limit and nearly turned into a Witch, and possibly using one or all of the above to siphon power from Madoka.
    • It could also be to do with her original wish, to redo her meeting with Madoka and to protect her instead of being protected by her. At the end of Homura's final loop, Madoka once again ended up having to save Homura - without Madoka's wish, it's nearly certain that Homura would have Witched out and/or been killed by Walpurgisnacht. And as far as the events of the world created from Madoka's wish are concerned, up until the events of the movie, Homura hasn't really been in a position to reliably protect Madoka; the latter girl is, after all, a universal law of reality now who can most likely take care of herself under normal circumstances. Even when she does get captured, Homura still isn't exactly in an optimal position to save her, at least not by herself. So in other words, Homura's wish arguably hasn't really come true, even taking into account the times she has successfully saved Madoka, like when fighting Oktavia in the third timeline seen in episode 10. But by overcoming the Law of Cycles, extracting Madoka from it somehow, and transforming both herself and the universe, Homura's wish is finally complete. She can now protect Madoka for eternity, just like she wants. In short, Homura got superpowers at least in part from the resolution of her wish.
    • I believe it's intentionally left ambiguous, but I like to think it was Kyubey's Isolation Field acting as a pressure cooker.
    • It could also be Madoka's wish. Consider what Homura does - she blocks the Law of Cycles. The whole Power of Love color only fills her Soul Gem after she grabs Madoka. Kyubey believed that blocking the Law of Cycles would create witches...but what if he was wrong? If a single witch was ever born, Madoka's wish won't come true. So when Homura interferes with the Law of Cycles, she turns into something other than a witch, which preserves Madoka's wish. A similar line of thinking could explain why Madoka broke apart - Homura didn't break Madoka from the Law of Cycles; the Law of Cycles broke off Madoka to escape Homura's grasp, as Homura was interfering with Madoka's wish coming true. As long as Homura was grabbing her, Madoka couldn't erase witches with her own hands, so Madoka's wish came true by turning Madoka into two people.
    • Fridge Brilliance: In the original timeline (the anime), Homura makes her contract and has normal levels of magical potential, but whenever she resets the timeline, she goes back to a point BEFORE she originally made the contract. Her wish was specifically to go back in time, so her magic has a safety net to prevent her from causing temporal paradox: remember the cutaway where Homura and Madoka switch places when they're being suspended from all those threads of fate? It's because every time Homura negates a timeline, that timeline is scrapped altogether and added to Madoka's magic because they can't attach to Homura herself. When Madoka makes her wish, it causes a temporal paradox (which is why Walpurgis is destroyed even though none of Madoka's arrows hits her; since she's destroying all the witches that made up Walpurgis in the past, she disintegrates) and forces the universe into a reset according to Madoka's new laws. In the new universe, where Madoka never existed, Homura has no reason to make the contract: no Madoka to protect, no Witch to attack her, no Walpurgis to prepare for. Yet, she doesn't go back to being her normal, shy Moemura self, and has a bow reminiscent of Madoka's even though in the new universe, she never met Madoka to base her weapon on. Why is that? Because Homura followed Madoka to the end of space-time and went back to the present as her current self, but her powers are retconned by Madoka herself. This means that Homura, without a Madoka to take on all that karmic destiny from the old universe, has to take it back because she doesn't have paradox-proofing anymore. She has exactly as much power as Madoka did, for the exact same reasons.

  • The ending conversation between Madoka and Homura, specifically the argument whether "Law" or "Desire" is more important, and Madoka replies that "Law" is better, because it's selfish if people break the rules. Madoka, the girl who took a sledgehammer to a law of the universe, says it's selfish to break the rules. WHAT?!? This is the girl who said, verbatum, that if a rule prevents someone from being happy, she'll destroy it. She'll change it. And then she proceeded to do just that to a LAW OF PHYSICS. And bear in mind she doesn't know what Homura did to the Law of the Cycles. It can't be because of any hypocrisy, with her being on the other end of that philosophy: she doesn't remember anything. All that in mind, I thought she would ask if the law was keeping someone from being happy, and say something along the lines of "I probably couldn't change it, but I'd want to". What the heck is with the flip-flop?
    • Going off of the quotes page, the translation of Madoka's exact reply is, "Uh... well, I think laws are more important. Wouldn't it be bad to just selfishly break the law?" Emphasis there on 'selfishly'. Madoka overturned the original system and became the Law of Cycles to save all of those other girls from that final despair; it also helped people who didn't witch out themselves but were still victims of the system - like Kyouko and Mami, who presumably are alive now because of her. Basically, her point isn't really "don't break the law", it's "don't break the law out of selfishness". Breaking a law for the sake of others, like she did to the Witch system, is something she's okay with. Also, remember that Homura's question was (most likely intentionally) relatively vague; Madoka, who apparently has no memory of anything magical, probably doesn't see any immediate examples of laws that would be okay to break by her own standards, which is why she gives a general answer without going into a lot of details or citing specific exceptions. That's my take on it, anyway, I'm not sure how well I explained my point of view there or if it's agreeable.

  • I thought Madoka's wish was to erase all the Witches. Yet despite that Sayaka can summon Oktavia Van Seckendorff, Nagisa can turn into Charlotte and Gertrud, the Rose Garden Witch, is implied to exist in the official profile (her existance explains the Anthonies that fight Homulily). How is that possible?
    • My impression is that the potential formation of a Witch was never removed from the Madokami system - something which Homura and Kyubey proved. Becoming a Witch is something inherent in Magical Girls - what Madoka did was gain the ability to remove the Magical Girl from reality before she became a Witch and caused mayhem in the outside world. This would imply she could also allow Witches (or some controlled form of them) to return by inaction. Madoka herself personally intervened with all Magical Girls at the threshold of becoming a Witch - presumably in the process of comforting them in their Darkest Hour she would reveal the purpose of her visit and would in the process explain what a Witch was to them. With Madoka there as someone who would always be with them, at least some of the Magical Girls (Sayaka, Nagisa, whatever Gertude was known as when she was a human girl) would likely be able to harness the power of a Witch without losing control of themselves (which, as scene in the movie, can prove to be very useful), and thus be able to corral it towards a controlled purpose (i.e., saving Homulily).
    • Also note that all those sane!Witch scenes refered to all take place within Homura's Soul Gem, which had been isolated from general Madokami power by the Incubators and so Madokami would have been unable to reach Homura directly (and so wouldn't have been able to retrieve Homura like she had other Magical Girls).
    • They're not really witches anymore. They're more like angels.
    • Your premise is incorrect. Madoka's wish was specifically to erase all witches before they were born. When is a witch born? When a Soul Gem becomes a Grief Seed. The witches can exist because they were never born. This is also why Homulilly can exist - she hasn't been born yet.

  • Also, I'm not entirely sure where did Mami and Kyouko come from. They were dead at the end of the series, but in the movie they are alive and they don't seem to be just figments of Homura's imagination. Did Madokami's restructuring of the universe resurrect Mami and Kyouko?
    • Yes - this was seen near the end of episode 12. The train station scene where Sayaka became a Witch in episode 8 had been retconned into Sayaka simply running out of magic while fighting wraiths. Mami would not have been Mogu-mogu'ed by Charlotte, as there would not have been a hostile Charoltte in the first place; similarly, Kyoko would not have sacrificed herself for a suffering Sayaka if there was no Oktavia out in the world in the first place.

  • At the very end of the movie, we can see Homura's geckons sitting on a roadsign, leading in two different directions. If i remember correctly, one of directions had "Good" written on it but what was on the other one?
    • Assuming I'm thinking of the same scene, I think they read "Good Morning," presumably in reference to Sayaka, and "Country of Sweets," presumably in reference to Nagisa.

  • There has been something bugging me at the end of the movie. When Homura starts the new world where everyone is, she is shown to mock all of the other Magical Girls that are not Madoka. For Sayaka, she makes sure she and Madoka are childhood friends. For Mami, she breaks the teacup in her hearing range. For Kyouko, she wastes food in front of her. The last one bothers me. Kyouko is the closest thing Homura had as an ally in this movie. Without Kyouko, she would not have been able to confirm that they were stuck in one area and could not return to Kyouko's hometown. Kyouko helps verify multiple times that their memories were altered. And Homura even apologizes to Kyouko for involving her in this mess. If this is the case, why would Homura need to taunt Kyouko to after all of that? Yes Homura is now a Jerkass God but given how Sayaka and Mami were making things difficult for her inside the witch barrier, taunting them would make sense. Why would she taunt the person that helped her the most though or is Homura really that ungrateful to everyone that is not Madoka?
    • That depends on your intepretation of the scene. An alternate possibility is that, while Homura has decided the world can burn as long as Madoka is happy and as a secondary priority the two of them are together, she may still feel bad about potentially wrecking everyone's futures and is driving the others away out of guilt. Plus, I think Kyouko had turned around before the food got wasted.
    • Pay close attention to that scene. Homura knocks over a teacup, but the motion of her hand is weird. She's not sweeping her hand from side-to-side, she's moving it forward - which makes it look like she's reaching out to Mami. As for Kyoko, think about this way: The familiars are expressing Homura's true or subconscious desires. Homura wants to accept Kyoko's apple. She wants to be Kyoko's friend. But she rejects that desire because of everything that she has done. When she shakes her head, she's not forcing Kyoko to waste food; she's denying her own desire to be Kyoko's friend.
    • Then there's the theory that She was relying on specifically Kyouko and Mami to kill her, which she mentions earlier, pre-transformation. Even when she begs them for death, they save her instead - and, knowing what Kyuubei plans, it: forces her to rip Madoka apart to protect her against them; throws out the sacrifice she had committed to making; and forces her to continue on, instead of freeing her with the release of death.

  • How is Hitomi being upset that kyosuke never have any time for her make her petty?
    • Because rather than talk to Kyosuke about her problems, she just pretends like nothing is wrong, and then throws a tantrum afterward.
    • That still seems fairly I dunno normal to me honestly. Maybe it was just like because of the short amount of time to work with movie Hitomi or maybe I just have a very specific idea of what petty is but it still doesn't seem that way. But I guess if it's true that this part of the movie is meant as a sort of Take That and/or Affectionate Parody of how fans portray Hitomi in fan works I guess that could explain it.
    • Really? People will bend over backwards to defend Homura, claiming that her actions are "understandable" and "human." But Hitomi has a breakdown over barely getting to see her boyfriend and she's petty? She even refrains from letting him have it while on the phone and only vents after hanging up.
      • I think it's because Homura goes through Hell and lets her love for Madoka drive her beyond human limitations while keeping a stoic face, while Hitomi has a much more realistic reaction of pitching a fit because her boyfriend isn't paying her enough attention. We the viewers know that the world is a much, much worse place than the average person in it can ever imagine, so of course Hitomi looks petty over nothing because to us, after watching the universe be destroyed and remade by the strength and maturity of a girl Hitomi's age who actually has seen the kind of real suffering that goes on in this Crapsack World, she's throwing a tantrum over nothing. Not to mention that Hitomi only shows an interest in Kyousuke after she finds out he's set to become a world-class violinist again, and she's upset because he's focusing more on his world-class violin training than on her; what was she expecting, exactly?

  • Since seeing the movie, something always bothered me... Why was Nakazawa brought into Homura's barrier? Did Homura buy into the whole student teacher relationship theory? Did she want Kyousuke to have a real friend? Was some sort of weird offscreen friendship between the two? Everyone else makes some sense... but not him...
    • She literally pulls in every named character in the series. In mythology and fairy tales, knowing someone's name gives a witch power over them.
    • I think she pulled in everyone she was familiar with. With all the times she restarted her first day school, she had heard Saotome-sensei call out his name just as many times.

  • Are there, or are there not, witches? Because the Law of Cycles says there shouldn't be. But in the end (roughly 1:51:58) there's that scene, with the witch's labyrinth.... (those cotton balls with mustaches)? Does this mean she actually fully broke the Law of Cycles and witches are back, but Homura is trying to prevent Madoka from realizing? Or.....?
    • It's honesty difficult to determine given how little we saw of Homura's universe. The implication appears to be that the familiars we see are the ones that Sayaka and Nagisa brought in earlier, trapped in that world with them for the same reasons they are. Given that Homura also mentions to Sayaka that there are apparently still Wraiths in the world ("After all of the wraiths have been destroyed, perhaps I will. When that time comes, I suppose I can be your enemy") and that Familiars are technically not witches, I'd assume that the Law is mostly working okay and the witches are still gone.
    • Nagisa is alive, and yet we see one of her familiars. Honestly, it's difficult to tell. All things considered, it seems like the familiars are just doing their own thing and not hurting anyone.
    • Here's my take on it: Homura's new universe, whether it's within a labyrinth-like barrier or it's just been completely remade from the ground up, has familiars running around (but only visible to magical girls, possibly visible to only the magical girls whose witches they come from) and a psychologically devastated Kyubey. This means there are no witches as per Madoka's wish, not because they're defeated by the Law of Cycles, but because rather than being destroyed before they're born, the despair of magical girls is forced into Kyubey rather than accumulating in Soul Gems (check Sayaka when she sees Kyousuke and Hitomi together; she's obviously upset, but there's no sign of it affecting her magic) so it can never begin to form into a witch in the first place. The familiars are manifestations of a witch's inner desires, which makes them also the manifestations of the inner desires of the magical girl, but without a witch, they're basically just harmless weirdos. All this frees Madoka from her responsibilities as the Law of Cycles and gives Homura the opportunity to force her into a mortal shape.

  • Homura's plan to protect Madoka from the Incubators. She mentions that she'll complete her transformation into a witch, and then rely on Mami and Kyouko to kill her at that point, thus preventing Kyuubey from observing Madoka/Law of Cycles. But... as we saw before and after that, Homura can't die inside her barrier even from breaking her soul gem since her actual soul gem is fine in the real world, and her witch transformation and subsequent defeat likewise didn't damage her real soul gem (presumably it'd already been corrupted to breaking point when the Incubators put their Field around it). Though the fight did end in everyone escaping the barrier, that happened because Madoka and Homura attacked the 'ceiling' and put a hole through it, not because of death on Homulilly's part. Furthermore, Homura didn't do anything to ensure that Mami and Kyouko would keep Madoka out of the battle - even though her whole motivation for trying to fully Witch out is that she doesn't want Kyuubey observing Madoka's powers any further... So my question is, if she wasn't capable of killing herself in magical girl form while in her barrier, why would she think killing herself as a Witch would work? And how was she expecting the final battle to play out?
    • She was expecting Mami and Kyouko to kill her. She never actually attempted to kill herself as a Magical Girl; she faked out to trick Mami once, and she destroyed a fake Soul Gem to confirm her Witchhood (And, yea, her Witch card indicates she can't actually kill herself through her execution plays, but presumably this doesn't include outside interference). Presumably, her plan was that if the two of them actually killed her, then the soul gem would basically implode, since they sort of killed the soul containing it. Then again, her plan doesn't HAVE to work, or be logical. She's a WITCH.
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