Headscratchers: Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths
If Owlman is a hardcore Nihilist, then why does he even want to do his plan to blow up all Earths? By his own definition, isn't that very action also meaningless? So why is he doing it?
His point is that whenever you make a decision, you split off an entirely separate universe where you make the opposite decision. If he destroys Earth-Prime, every single Earth will be destroyed and this is the one action that cannot simply create more Earths.
Owlman explains how the multiverse works poorly. When you make a decision it doesn't create a universe where you made the opposite decision. It creates a multiverse where you didn't make that particular decision. There is a universe where Owlman didn't just shrug it off and spent eternity trying to get off that planet, probably a few where he managed it for example.
But again, what's the point? Like he said, nothing matters or has any meaning.
It's possible that's the moment he actually realized that he was making a decision and thus splitting the timeline. Destroying Earth Prime, intentionally anyway, is entirely impossible because it involves a choice. We often make the mistake of thinking that just because Batman/Owlman/Any fictional genius is smarter than us that they can figure out what it takes hundreds of us thousands of watchings/readings to figure have a fatal flaw but that may not be true. I think Owlman literally didn't understand the rammifications until the game was set and then he simply accepted the the outcome and chose to die in a bomb rather than starve or freeze. Someone is thinking of asking why he didn't build a gate, maybe he couldn't with the time he had left. Even Tony Stark who built a suit with a box of scraps had a box of scraps. He wasn't stranded on an iceberg without power tools, refined steel, and all the other modern(ish) advantages.
Again you guys, you're ignoring my question. It's not about what happens during the fight with Batman, or after on the iice world, or even the rammifications of what he was trying ti do. I'm asking why, a nihilist like Owlman, wants to destroys all Earths, when by definition as a Nihilist, nothing matters?
Because Owlman, like most people, wants to do things that matter. But he's determined that there is nothing that matters except maybe destroying everything.
Owlman walks through Superwoman on the alternate universe theory, citing one planet where humans never evolved. Then towards the end, on earth prime, we are told that every human action splits off another world. Can you see the contradiction here? Why is fish world even a thing, if there are no human actions to change something?
Likely he just means that decisions as a whole alter things; no fish chose to go out of the water on that planet, ergo no humans. The bit about it being "human action" that changes everything is likely the result of Owlman's own hatred for humanity, combined with the fact that most alternates are changed by human choices.
Concurrent with the above trope I think it's pretty simple logic that the existence of realities is wholly determined by human thought. How would anything exist before humans of that were true?
The concept of an earth prime makes no sense. It's like one particular branch somehow holding the entire tree up.
or the Trunk...
It's the trunk. Only by virtue of the Multiverse it doesn't REALLY exist. The moment Owlman decided to travel there a second Earth Prime is created where he did not make the decision to go there.
That wouldn't create an earth, but even if it did, it wouldn't matter, because it wouldn't be Earth Prime. It would be extremely similar to Earth Prime, but it wouldn't be the same thing.
The thing is Owlman is mistaken. As was already mentioned the moment Owlman traveled to Earth Prime a different Earth was created where he didn't. More to the point he realizes that there are Earth's where humans never evolved and yet are somehow to blame for the problems. There is also the fact that we know in the DC Universe that humans, if not Earth is relatively young. Removing Earth and humans from the equation wouldn't have any effect on anything Martians, Kryptonians, Thanagarians etc,etc have done to shape the universe. Unless Earth Prime works via equal parts alternate dimensions and time travel like in Turtles Forever where apparently destroying the "source material" destroys everything that was built upon it retroactively.
Think of it as the trunk where Earth Prime sits unblemished. It will remain unaltered because any attempts to move from the branch to the trunk with just grow another branch.
Besides, did he go back in time to do this or something? If he destroys it in whatever year this adventure takes place, the other Earths have already been created. Why would they cease to exist, retroactively never exist, or even be harmed in the blast?
No, he didn't travel back in time at least not as far we we can tell. Interdimensional travel gets confusing like that since there is no rule saying they all have to be at the same time period. However Owlman (claims) knows that the reason Earth Prime is lifeless is because of human action so he didn't travel back to beginning. The theory (in so much as fantasy science shows any consistency) is that Earth Prime is where everything else stems from and without it there would be nothing. Sure it shouldn't work retroactively so time travel aught be required though it's possible that the multiverse works exactly like a tree and without the trunk the branches simply wither and die regardless of anything else.
Owlman did make it to Earth prime, once he got there more Earths would have been created but he would stay on the original. Lets hope those duplicates don't try again.
The way I always looked at it was that the creation of the Multiverse be it God/Big Bang/Other Forces was the root, Earth Prime was the trunk and everything else was the branches. By taking out Earth Prime you are essentially killing near enough the whole tree however because the root is still in place a new Earth Prime is created that replaces the old one.
Why is Alt!Chesire evil? Aren't villain and hero supposed to be reversed in Luthor's universe?
Actually that was Alt!Katana not Chesire.
It may also have been Alt!Lynx.
Either way, that's only the case in most instances, given Alt!Lobo's presence.
Doesn't fit with what we're shown. "Every choice" splits the world. Also, there are versions of Owlman that we would find quite pleasant.
Because when Owlman made the decision to go Earth Prime he created a second Earth Prime where he did not make that decision. By virtue of every decision we make creating two universes you really can't get to Earth Prime, certainly not without time travel to just go to the beginning.
Deciding not to go to Earth Prime wouldn't make another one. And even if it did, it wouldn't' be Earth PRIME.
Individual choices create new Earths. In the reality in which Owlman did not choose to try and kill everything, why would that make a new Earth Prime? It would just change how things worked out in that particular reality. Only changes to Earth Prime affect other universes, not the other way around.
Two ideas here. Firstly, who's to say the universe Owlman and Batman ended up in was Earth Prime? There is no actual difference between Earth Owlman And Batman Fight and Earth Prime, so he just made a mistake. Alternate theory: the universe was specifically by a higher power (the great and powerful McDuffie, all hail his holy name) to be not so shoddily designed as to allow such an insignificant speck to ruin all his work. That pretty much covers all the bases.
Word of God says it's because that wasn't really Earth Prime. As mentioned above, as soon as Owlman chooses to jump worlds, Earth-Prime splits into two alternate realities - one where the jump was successful and one where it wasn't. The actual Prime world remains untouched.
Why did Good!Luthor not use the dimensional shifter to save himself and the Jester in the first scene, right after he had gotten the quantum trigger?
Because the two pursuers were too close. Jester had to buy some time for Luthor to properly escape.
But then when he actually uses it, the Justice Lords are right in front of him.
Are Lex Luthors predisposed to be evil or did Lex know about our Earth before coming here? If I was Lex Luthor and traveled to a new dimension I would have gone looking for my double and his hopefully still operating Justice League. Instead he walks into the police department knowing that they'd recognize him and recognize him as an A class villian so the easiest way to get Superman (who back home is evil) is to threaten world domination. He had to have known the situation prior to showing up.
No, he walks into the police station to contact the Justice League, but the cops pull guns on him and react to him like he was a criminal, so he makes his 'threat' to ensure they call the League. Simple really.
He knew that his Luthor was a criminal and that the League were heroes already. Its obvious that he has learnt to spy on and spot the differences between his world and others, because Owlman, Superwoman and Batman themselves can do it. Unless Batman didn't know that Owlman and his planet-killing bomb would be going to a dead iceworld and is an asshole who didn't give a damn.
Why is it that, when comparing the differences between this movie and the DCAU, everyone mentions Green Lantern being different but not Aquaman?
Because overall Aquaman is a white guy who sometimes has a tan but a beard and hair length is not worth talking about. Green Lantern, on the other hand, is at least several human characters.
After seeing the reversed layout of Alt-Lex's organs, why is Superman's first conclusion that he's from another universe? Couldn't he easily be something more "mundane" like an imperfect clone or a shapeshifter?
Could a clone or a shapeshifter have reversed layouts?
Yes actually there was a shapeshifter that reversed everything in the people he copied. The reverse organ thing just proved that Alt-Luthor was a different person from normal Luthor.
How did Superman talk in space? Superman can't talk in space. He wasn't wearing a space suit, he wasn't wearing a breathing mask, and he certainly wasn't speaking telepathically!
Whether or not he can talk or breath in space really depends on the version of Superman depicted. In the DCAU, he can't breath in space and needs a space suit or breathing mask, in the comics, he's been shown to talk and even hold extended conversations with people while in space (The Supergirl Story arc of Superman/Batman comes to mind specifically).
Even if he doesn't need to breathe, though, there's no way for sound to travel in space.
Well then welcome to comic book logic. Hope you enjoy your stay.
He is using an earpiece. Sound could travel through his own body without air.
I get that Superwoman is suppose to be a Mary Marvel Counterpart rather than Wonder Woman. But then why do we have Mary Mayhem?
According to the comments, the consensus is that the writer intended for Superwoman to be evil!Mary Marvel, but failed to make this intent completely known to the design team, resulting in goofs like that.
If Crime Syndicate is able to give superpowers to normal humans and turn them into made men, why does the Owlman have to rely on his Powerarmor?
Probably the same reason Batman never tries to get powers even though there are methods in the main DCU where he could get them. He doesn'tneed them.
Oh, but Owlman seems to need them, as he did create a power armor instead of standard suit. So why not real superpowers instead of superpowered suit?
The other reason why Batman doesn't go looking for superpower boosts first chance he gets as well; pride. Like Batman, Owlman prides himself on being a physically 'normal' human being who can nevertheless keep up with and even outclass godlike beings with superpowers. They just have different approaches; Batman trains himself to the peak of human physical perfection and relies on a few tools and gadgets but otherwise takes the minimalistic approach, while Owlman goes the power-armour approach.
Why is Deathstroke the president? Why did WB puss out on having a not named impersonator like someone looking like Osama Bin Laden? In the book it was Fidel Castro and I thought that was a great concept. Its a pg-13 movie, it feels dumbed down for the audience.
Using a real-world figure can date a work.
Also, using an established DC character instead of a real world figure is more appealing to some fans.
Furthermore, that makes him the second President Wilson. Geeks from all corners rejoice!
If every possible choice branches off... why isn't there ALSO a reality where Owlman's bomb, for one reason or another, did go off, thus killing everyone anyway?
Yup. But because at least one version of "Earth Prime" still exists, only the planet the bomb was on would actually be destroyed.
Because things that happen on Earth Prime affect the multiverse, things that happen in the multiverse do not affect Earth Prime.
According to Word of God, if Owlman's plan was doomed from the start due to creating an alternate Earth Prime, what was the point in Batman even trying to stop him? It was a pointless Rule of Cool battle with absolutely no threat to our own existence. And if both Batman and Owlman were smart enough to deduce that every choice we make creates an alternate Earth, why couldn't they work out that the choice to travel to Earth Prime or not, or detonating the bomb itself or not, would've created an alternate Earth Prime, rendering Owlman's pursuit for total destruction of everything pointless?
I haven't read the Word of God and would like to. However Owlman's plan even if it was doomed to not end all of existence it would have ended every world born from the one where he made the decision to head back which presumably would have included his own where he came from and Batman's which is linked to that one. Also as smart as Batman/Owlman is it's possible they missed some detail in a complex or occasionally very simple plan.
If Owlman didn't realize that flaw in his plan, Batman probably wouldn't either.
There is no indication even by the Wordof God that OUR existence was in no danger only that the multiverse itself would survive. If Owlman's plot to destroy the entire Multiverse instead succeeded in destroy two very specific worlds one of which Batman called home and the other he was currently standing in that's more than enough of infinite multiverse to justify doing whatever it took to stop Owlman.
Because if Batman thinks that Owlman's plan is doomed to fail to begin with and chooses to do nothing...then he's gambling the entire multiverse on the idea that he is right and Owlman is wrong. Quite simply, either he thinks Owlman is right (meaning simply that both Owlman and Batman are wrong), or he just thinks that there is an outside chance that Owlman might be right. Quite bluntly, Batman is not arrogant enough to take that chance.
So, one of the classic differences between the JLA and the Crime Syndicate is that the JLA doesn't kill, Syndicate does. But during the finale, Batman ties Owlman to the bomb before he sends it off, killing him.
Batman didn't kill Owlman, he just sent him to the ice planet and gave him a choice. Disarm the bomb and freeze/starve to death or let it go off and die. Although if Owlman IS resourceful as Batman he probably could have dismantled the bomb and built a way off the ice planet or some other such thing.
Batman left the dimension hopper for Owlman so that he could potentially save himself (which in hindsight is incredibly stupid of Batman- if Owlman did disarm the bomb in time, then he could just hop back to Earth Prime with the bomb again, or go to Syndicate Earth or even Justice League Earth and decide revenge is just as good). But regardless of that, there are far, far more differences between the Syndicate and the League than "one kills, one doesn't". The Crime Syndicate is a crime syndicate, and a particularly powerful and evil one at that; if the League decided to kill every single supervillain they ran into from now on or go all Justice Lord on the world they would still be better than these guys, because these guys are a bunch of superpowered thugs, murderers, psychopaths and sadists, who were quite happy to threaten to blow up the planet if they weren't treated like gods (or in the case of Owlman and Superwoman, blow up everything on a nihilistic whim).
Owlman says that the multiverse consists of every possible universe where every possible choice was taken. So wouldn't there be a combination of universes where Batman was unable to stop Owlman, causing the multiverse to end no matter what?
Not necessarily. Owlman obviously believes this is so, but his theory was not conclusively proven as true. We see a myriad of possibilities, but no proof that every possibility is incarnate in this multiverse beyond his word.
Word of God says that Owlman's plan was doomed from the start because as soon as any free-will choice occurs on Earth-Prime, it splits off two Earth-Not-Quite-Primes where the possible choices play out, leaving the actual Cosmic Keystone world undisturbed. Something like this has to be the case. If Earth Prime remained unique, then every possible Owlman with destructive intent would show up there at once. They would crush each other by their sheer mass.
Why wouldn't Owlman just abort the QED in the end, wait until he was fairly certain that Batman was off of Earth Prime, then go back and finish the job? Though it does make sense when you consider his Nietzsche Wannabe philosophy.
The dimensional shifter may not have had enough power to make the jump, especially with something as big as the QED, to which one might say that he was probably carrying a backup power cell (though Owlman isn't necessarily as Crazy-Prepared as Batman; in the comics he simply has a drug-fuelled enhanced intellect). Alternatively, he may have simply decided that doing nothing was no more or less valid a choice than doing something because it didn't matter.
There is another way of looking at it if you want to potentially give the writers more credit than they likely deserve in over thinking this. This was Earth Prime. Any Owlman from a vaguely similar Earth should have showed up there. Sure, some would have shown up on Earth Almost Primes, but still only Owlman and Batman showed up. This would imply only this Owlman made it this far. Drug fueled or natural, Owlman likely noticed this. He was the only variation that made it that far, that almost succeeded, a fluke. Then, he failed. He may have come to the conclusion that all other attempts were stopped somehow by providence/destiny/etc. He was stopped. Attempting to destroy Earth Prime is impossible.
Or, as he himself said at the end, it truly doesn't matter. According to Owlman's theory, it didn't matter if he chose not to stop the QED from going off—because at the instant he made that choice, that universe split into two, with him making the opposite choice on the other ice-world universe. If Owlman is right, it truly didn't matter if he died, because somewhere else, he didn't.
Apparently the only choices that matter in the multiverse are of humans on Earth?
All DC canon aside, The movie was about the multidimensional choices of the planet Earth. So for the Planet Earth, the choices on Earth matter. For example, If we take Martian Manhunter - there has to be an Earth were he never left Mars (for whatever reason), meaning there must be multidimensional Marses where x happens but y doesn't and etc etc.
Both "Earth Prime" and "Mars Prime" and every other world would basically occupy a "Universe Prime", which is probably another reason Owlman was doomed to fail- he is far too Earth-centric and human-centric to appreciate how complex the system he's trying to destroy really is. Given his intelligence, this is probably a sign of how insanely misanthropic he really is, even more than he appears to be.
Unlikely. Owlman was trying to destroy the multiverse. One of the important details in Infinite Crisis is that Earth is the center of the Multiverse as opposed to Oa which is the center of the Universe. Owlman had the right target, his plan was probably flawed but his target was proper even if it was for the wrong reasons.
When the Q.E.D. is armed, a window appears that says "Abort: Yes/No". I can guess what pressing "yes" does, but what does pressing "no" do, seeing as it's already on a timer?
It's there in case it was armed by mistake. If you armed it on purpose, then "no" is what you press.
Why would the destruction of Earth Prime have effected anything else? The explanation that we are given is that the universe functions more or less like a tree. (Work with me for a second) and that Earth Prime is either the seed or the roots and either way nothing else can exist without it but that doesn't really make sense (unless there is some time travel involved as well that simply isn't mentioned.) because what happens on Earth Prime should be no more important to what happens on Earth (whatever number this story takes place on) than say your parents or grand parents have on you. Sure they exist but killing them today won't wink you out of existence.
It doesn't make sense because you changed metaphors half-way through. Stay with the tree. Earth Prime is like the trunk—if you chop it down, the rest of the tree dies with it.
Owlman mentions that while he doesn't know how Earth Prime became a wasteland he does know that it was the fault of human choice. How exactly does that square with his idea that there are worlds where no fish was brave enough to crawl up out of the ocean and thus man never evolved? That seems to be a rather major hiccup in his philosophy.
Owlman is an omnicidal madman. They're not exactly known for the thoroughness and lucidity of their world views. He's just trying to justify his own actions, nothing more.
Earth Prime was once inhabited, as evidenced by the visible ruins — that's proof enough for Owlman to reach a conclusion that gibes with what he's inclined to believe anyway.
Every choice on the evil earth creates more. Doesn't that mean there are billions more Owlman out there trying to destroy Earth Prime?
Superman & Lex Luthor's defeat of Ultraman. It's been pointed out more than once in the DC universe that kryptonite only affects kryptonians from the same dimension.
Earth-Prime was a barren wasteland, but in the comics it's supposed to be our world. Unless they were just in L.A., clearly it's all non-canon and the rules are different here.
Has anyone here considered what would happen if Owlman had just sent the bomb there on its own? A bomb can't make a free will choice, thereby neutralizing the loopholes established on this page.
The very act of opening a portal or otherwise making contact with Earth Prime automatically creates a second. And Owlman most likely wasn't on Earth Prime anyway. He speaks of a world where no fish was ever brave enough to climb up on land and then comments that live on Earth Prime ended because of a decision that man made. Clearly if there is a world where no fish evolved into man its closer to Earth Prime than a planet that was destroyed by humans. Either way destroying Earth Prime is completely impossible.
Even if you don't think Batman killed Owlman, he still totally killed Johnny Quick. He used a Batman Gambit to trick him into volunteering for a job that Batman knew could kill him and chose not to tell him about the risk. That's what the lawyers call "depraved indifference to human life" and, since Johnny died as a result, it's murder.
It was Johnny or Flash, and Batman clearly valued the life of his comrade over the life of a criminal. Moreover, it was that or the end of the multiverse. Even THEN, he didn't kill Johnny; he merely made him volunteer for something that would sacrifice his life. Batman even tells him it could be dangerous; it's not even like he doesn't warn Johnny about there being risks, he's just not specific. Batman commits a lie of omission, but ultimately it was still Johnny's decision.