History Main / TwoPlusTortureMakesFive

Fortunately, this is a case of ArtisticLicenseMedicine and its use in ''1984'' itself is a case of ScienceMarchesOn, as it turns out that you quite simply cannot torture someone into believing something, and if anything they're going wind up ''far less'' receptive to whatever beliefs you were trying to instill on them, since they'll associate it with torturers.

* In the ''Series/BabylonFive'' episode "Intersections in Real Time", John Sheridan's torture and interrogation is based around manipulating perspective and convincing Sheridan to accept the fact that the truth is fluid, and therefore he's a mutineer, a conspirator, a terrorist, and a victim of alien influence. They needs him to sincerely believe his confession in order to fool telepathic scans. However, he manages to rather effectively turn the logic around against his interrogator by saying that, essentially, just as their truth is valid to them, so is his to himself.
-->'''John Sheridan:''' You know, it's funny, I was thinking about what you said, that the preeminent truth of our age is that you cannot fight the system. But if, as you say, the truth is fluid, that the truth is subjective, then maybe you can fight the system. As long as just one person refuses to be broken, refuses to bow down.\\

'''John Sheridan:''' Every time I say '''"no."'''

* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolidVThePhantomPain'': Interestingly, if you shoot Ocelot with a tranquilizer round, he claims he has drug resssistannce trrraiiinnninnng. Repeated shots eventually make him insist "Two plus two equals five. TWO plus two equals FIVE..." without any outside assistance. As it turns out, he's intentionally ''torturing himself with [[{{doublethink}} reinforced contradictory beliefs]]'' because [[spoiler:Venom Snake is on the verge of accidentally breaking his hypnosis, and like in ''VideoGame/{{Metal Gear Solid 4|GunsOfThePatriots}}'', he kind of needs to semi-forget that Venom Snake ''isn't'' Big Boss to pull this insurrection off]].

* ''WesternAnimation/RobotChicken'' does the EnhancedInterrogationTechniques version with the nerd, who's being [[ItMakesSenseInContext questioned as to the location of]] [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Mordor]]. He finally tells them what they want him to say.[[note]] "Pakistan."[[/note]]

* In ''Equivocation'', [[ShakespeareInFiction Shag]] protests that a Gunpowder Plot conspirator's confession obtained by torture isn't the best evidence by pointing out the misspelling of his own name ([[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_and_Thomas_Wintour#Thomas.27s_confession Winter where it should be Wintour]]). Cecil threatens he can have similarly done to Shag, giving justification to playwright Bill Cain's use of [[AwesomeMcCoolname William Shagspeare]] in place of the well-known Creator/WilliamShakespeare.

* The Chinese advisor Zhao Gao decided to test whether he could pull off a coup by bringing up a deer and calling it a horse. The Emperor Qin Er Shi, confused, asked why he was calling a deer a horse. Zhao then asked the other officials what the deer was, then later ordered that anyone who either called it a deer or stayed silent be marked for death. His logic was that if they called it a horse, they were more loyal to him than to their own eyes--and by extension, the Emperor.

* Inverted in the ''WesternAnimation/AmericanDad'' episode where Deputy Director Bullock is sleeping with Hayley and Stan [[TeachHimAnger tries to make her ex-boyfriend Jeff more assertive]]. Stan states a blatant falsehood (that the orange he's holding is a banana), which Jeff agrees to because he's that much of a wimp. Stan then [[ElectricTorture electrifies Jeff]] until he ''stops'' agreeing with Stan and sticks up for himself ([[WontTakeYesForAnAnswer and once more time by accident]]).

* This is part of the treatment Petruchio gives Katharine in order to "tame" her in ''Theatre/TheTamingOfTheShrew'', when he insists that the food is bad and the clothes are ugly and refuse to allow her to eat or keep them. He also obstinately claims that it is 7 o'clock, when it is only 2. "...it shall be what o'clock I say it is." She later gives in to his game, agreeing with Petruchio that, in spite of it being broad daylight, that the moon is shining, and shortly after agrees with him that it is not the moon after all, but in fact the sun. This is potentially Shakespeare's ode to {{Gaslighting}}.

* Amnesty International Belgium ran a series of anti-torture ads in 2014 that played with this trope using famous celebrities Photoshopped into beaten, broken people admitting something very contrary to their known beliefs-- like Music/IggyPop describing Music/JustinBieber as [[http://cdn4.pitchfork.com/news/55689/56991da6.jpg "the future of rock 'n' roll".]] (Other posters showed the Dalai Lama praising yuppie-style consumerism and fashion designer Karl Lagerfeld extolling Hawaiian shirts and flip-flop sandals.)
* Antique trials were quite often this. For example, in witch trials, suspects would be tortured to make them "confess" to witchcraft. If they confessed, then BurnTheWitch. If not...then keep on torturing them until they do.

* In ''WesternAnimation/AbraCatastrophe'', Crocker claims that fairy godparents are powerful enough to make 2 + 2 = 🐟. Later, when he kidnaps Wanda and uses her powers to make himself ruler of the world, he's mentioned as actually making this come about as part of his authoritarian rule.

* Inverted in the ''WesternAnimation/AmericanDad'' episode where Deputy Director Bullock is sleeping with Hayley and Stan [[TeachHimAnger tries to make her ex-boyfriend Jeff more assertive]]. Stan states a blatant falsehood (that the orange he's holding is a banana), which Jeff agrees to because he's that much of a wimp. Stan then [[ElectricTorture electrifies Jeff]] until he ''stops'' agreeing with Stan and sticks up for himself ([[WontTakeYesForAnAnswer and once more time by accident]]).
* [[ParodiedTrope Spoofed]] in the ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' episode "Fishsticks" when Music/KanyeWest, [[ItMakesSenseInContext denying that liking fish sticks makes him a gay fish]], tracks down Carlos Mencia, believed at the time to be [[spoiler:the originator of the "fish sticks" joke]], and tortures him. When Mencia is [[IRejectYourReality unable to crack]] and [[ItMakesSenseInContext break from the "reality" of the joke]], Kanye [[LudicrousGibs decapitates him with a baseball bat]].

Fortunately, this is a case of ArtisticLicenseMedicine and its use in 1984 itself is a case of ScienceMarchesOn, as it turns out that you quite simply cannot torture someone into believing something, and if anything they're going wind up ''far less'' receptive to whatever beliefs you were trying to instill on them, since they'll associate it with torturers.

* In the ''Series/BabylonFive'' episode "Intersections in Real Time", John Sheridan's torture and interrogation of is based around manipulating perspective and convincing Sheridan to accept the fact that the truth is fluid, and therefore he's a mutineer, a conspirator, a terrorist, and a victim of alien influence. They needs him to sincerely believe his confession in order to fool telepathic scans. However, he manages to rather effectively turn the logic around against his interrogator by saying that, essentially, just as their truth is valid to them, so is his to himself.

* Antique trials were quite often this. For example, in witch trials, suspects would be tortured to make them "confess" to witchcraft. If they confessed, then BurnTheWitch If not...then keep on torturing them until they do.
** During the Salem witch trials, as dramatised in ''Theatre/TheCrucible'', Giles Corey was one of the few who [[TortureIsIneffective withstood the torture till the end]]. If he had confessed, he would've been excommunicated from the church and his property would've been lost; if he'd denied the accusation, he'd have been persecuted anyway and his property would've still been lost. To ensure that his family would inherit his property, he remained DefiantToTheEnd as his interrogators slowly crushed his body under heavyweights. His last words when asked if he'd confess? [[FaceDeathWithDignity "More weight."]]

* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'': In the fifth book, Ramsay Bolton tortures [[spoiler: Theon Greyjoy]] and conditions him to accept a completely different identity.
** Also pops up in the backstory novel ''Literature/FireAndBlood''. The conspiracy against King Aegon III (and more specifically, [[FantasticRacism against his Lyseni in-laws]] who have gained massive influence in the court) sets up his regent Lord Thaddeus Rowan as a scapegoat, torturing him to the point where he'll give a seemingly honest confession to being accused of trying to assassinate the king on behalf of the aforementioned in-laws. This ends up [[HoistByHisOwnPetard backfiring]] on the conspirators, as Aegon's brother Viserys quickly realizes that Rowan will just as earnestly confess to ''anything'', from contradictory accusations about aspects of the conspiracy all the way up to being responsible for the Doom of Valyria. This exposes the false nature of his "confession" and brings down the conspiracy.

* Part of what happened to Tycho Celchu at the beginning/in the backstory of the ''Literature/XWingSeries''. He was bent pretty terribly by Isard but didn't actually break. When she overlaid Rebel and Imperial insignia and tried to transfer his loyalty to one over to the other, the contradiction sent him into a catatonic state. She later tried it on [[spoiler:Corran Horn]] with even less success.

* ''Film/LandOfTheBlind'': The new regime apparently mandates vegetarianism, and forces dissidents in the re-education camps to recite: [[FourTermsFallacy "A dry crust of bread is better than nothing, but nothing is better than a big juicy steak. Therefore, dry crust of bread is better than a big juicy steak."]] Plus of course "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

** During the Salem witch trials, as dramatised in ''Theatre/TheCrucible'', Giles Corey was one of the few who [[TortureIsIneffective withstood the torture till the end]]. If he had confessed, he would've been excommunicated from the church and his property would've been lost; if he'd denied the accusation, he'd have been persecuted anyway and his property would've still been lost. To ensure that his family would inherit his property, he remained DefiantToTheEnd as his interrogators slowly crushed his body under heavyweights. His FamousLastWords when asked if he'd confess? [[FaceDeathWithDignity "More weight."]]

Fortunately, this is a case of ArtisticLicenseMedicine and its use in 1984 itself is a case of ScienceMarchesOn, as it turns out that you quite simply cannot torture someone into believing something, and if anything they're going wind up ''far less'' receptive to whatever beliefs you were trying to instill on them, [[RealityEnsues since they'll associate it with torturers.]]

* In the ''Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration'' episode "The Chain of Command, Part II," Picard is captured during a black op and taken to [[TortureTechnician Gul Madred]], who thinks that Picard knows Federation defense plans. Madred tries to force Picard to tell him that there are five lights on the wall when there are really only four. Every time Picard insists that there are four, Madred zaps him with an AgonyBeam. When Picard is finally released, due to a deal being struck between the Federation and the Cardassians, he defiantly proclaims "[[PunctuatedForEmphasis THERE! ARE! FOUR! LIGHTS!]]" to Madred as he is leaving, but it's not as [[DefiantToTheEnd triumphant]] as it seems -- later, Picard admits to Troi that not only would he have readily ''said'' there were five lights just to make the pain stop if he hadn't been released at that exact moment, he was so much at his wits' end that he for a moment actually ''saw'' five lights.

** During the Salem witch trials, as dramatised in ''Theatre/TheCrucible'', Giles Corey was one of the few who [[TortureIsIneffective withstood the torture till the end]]. If he had confessed, he would've been excommunicated from the church and his property would've been lost; if he'd denied the accusation, he'd have been persecuted anyway and his property would've still been lost. To ensure that his family would inherit his property, he remained DefiantToTheEnd as his interrogators slowly crushed his body under heavyweights. His FamousLastWords when asked if he'd confess? [[FaceDeathWithDignity "More weight."]] [[IncrediblyLamePun Clearly, this man had stones.]]

* The Sith have a tendency to use this and BeingTorturedMakesYouEvil on Jedi captives. Unfortunately, it's often successful because the Sith are not only exploiting loopholes in the Jedi's dogma of emotional repression, but they also exploit the Order's ''chronic'' bad habit of [[HalfTruth telling their rank-and-file "a certain point of view"]] when it comes to critical information.

[-Image by [[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/78q8ke/exclusive-5-artists-reimagine-1984-for-2017 Joe Baker]]-].]]

Often occurs in a society where BigBrotherIsWatching. A good way of procuring a ManchurianAgent or otherwise {{Brainwashed}} drone; if you can break someone down so much that they end up believing this, then you can put them back together however you want.

Fortunately, This is a case of ArtisticLicenseMedicine and its use in 1984 itself is a case of ScienceMarchesOn, as it turns out that you quite simply cannot torture someone into believing something, and if anything they're going wind up ''far less'' receptive to whatever beliefs you were trying to instill on them, [[RealityEnsues since they'll associate it with torturers.]]

* ''ComicBook/LandOfTheBlind'': "Nothing is better than a big juicy steak."

Fortunately, This is a case of ArtisticLicenseMedicine and it's use in 1984 itself is a case of ScienceMarchesOn, as it turns out that you quite simply cannot torture someone into believing something, and if anything they're going wind up ''far less'' receptive to whatever beliefs you were trying to instill on them, [[RealityEnsues since they'll associate it with torturers.]]

%% Please do not change or remove either without starting a new thread.

Fortunately, This is a case of ArtisticLicenseMedicine and it's use in 1984 itself is a case of ScienceMarchesOn, as it turns out that you quite simply cannot torture someone into believing something, and if anything they're going wind up ''far less' receptive to whatever beliefs you were trying to instill on them, [[RealityEnsues since they'll associate it with torturers.]]

* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolidVThePhantomPain'': Interestingly, if you shoot Ocelot with a tranquilizer round, he claims he has drug resssistannce trrraiiinnninnng. Repeated shots eventually make him insist "Two plus two equals five. TWO plus two equals FIVE..." without any outside assistance. As it turns out, he's intentionally ''torturing himself with reinforced contradictory beliefs'' because [[spoiler:Venom Snake is on the verge of accidentally breaking his hypnosis, and like in ''VideoGame/{{Metal Gear Solid 4|GunsOfThePatriots}}'', he kind of needs to semi-forget that Venom Snake ''isn't'' Big Boss to pull this insurrection off]].

A MindRape technique [[TropeCodifier popularised]] by ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour'': The villain has the hero in his clutches, but the hero Simply... Won't... ''Crack''. Sometimes the villain has to do more, i.e., to make the hero's mind break. This means using ColdBloodedTorture (both physical and psychological) to make the hero [[TheTreacheryOfImages see things that aren't there]] or being forced to acknowledge [[BlatantLies things that are patently untrue]], [[DoubleThink self-contradictory]], and/or [[LogicBomb irrational]].

->''"Nazi theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as "the truth" exists... The implied objective of this line of thought is a nightmare world in which the Leader, or some ruling clique, controls not only the future but ''the past''. If the Leader says of such and such an event, 'It never happened' -- well, it never happened. If he says that two and two are five -- well, two and two are five."''

* In ''Literature/NightWatch'', the utterly mad Captain Findthee Swing uses craniometrics to determine whether someone was a criminal or not. And funnily enough, "after a short stay in the care of his much more direct underlings, he would inevitably be proven right".