This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
I've greatly cut down Unfortunate Implications, since we now know that Eric incarcerating Lafayette had nothing to do with stopping him from dealing V - on the contrary, the vampires wanted to take over the operation for whatever means - and that Maryann reprimanding Lettie Mae didn't lead to her changing her behaviour for the better - instead it was Lettie Mae's faith which kept her sober. Generally, Maryann's impact on everyone around her, including Tara, has been so negative, I don't think her treatment of Tara can be listed as an example of a white person "saving" an African-American. I've also cut out the discussion on whether Eric and Maryann count as "white" because they are supes, since I believe per guidelines, that should be debated here, not on the show page.
@A Xavier B: In Chekhov's Gun, I took out the part identifying Maryann's statue as Nathor. I know she's based on the "Bird Lady," but she was never named on the show, and the Bird Lady in turn isn't linked to Dionysus, AFAIK.
I know it's hardly possible, but it would be great if we could leave the Bill or Eric rivalry some viewers are pushing out of the article. Not everyone who likes Eric turns him into a Draco in Leather Pants. There is also no need to constantly berate Bill as a wet blanket.
Erased Dropped a Bridge on Him for Karl (again). He's a very, very minor character whose death suited his overall insignificance. I don't think it fits the trope.
I also erased Depraved Bisexual for Sophie-Anne. Jumping Eric to subdue him doesn't make her bisexual, and she herself said she doesn't enjoy doing men. Per canon, she's a lesbian.
I removed speculation that Eric was sent by Sophie-Anne to spy on Sookie. Nothing said or seen on the show supports this idea. We also don't know if he is trying to addict people to vampire blood, we just know that he is following Sophie-Anne's orders in distributing it. I also cut down his Jerk Ass entry, because while he certainly is one, most of the reasons listed were either speculation or Your Milage May Vary.
I completely took Tara out of the Jerk Ass entry, and rewrote Jason, Luke and Andy's entries.
I also took out a stray "Reverend Newlen (sic) is sort of likable" from Magnificent Bastard, as it didn't seem to fit there. The OP might want to reinsert where he or she originally wanted it to be.
I took out Bill saving Tara from Pet the Dog - for one, I don't think Bill needs Pet The Dog moments, given that he is heroic and fair and recycles and whatnot, and for two, that scene might be seen as rather creepy instead of wholesome.
I erased Maryann's minions from Too Dumb to Live and added Brainwashed and Crazy as a category to put them there.
Im taking the fact that Daphne pronounced Manead as "Maynaaed" out of Not Doing The Reaserch. Having a southern accent in the south has nothing to do with research. Damsel in Distress, Im taking out the commentary about how different she is in the books. it might be good to consider making a different heading for Southern vampire the books. A lot of stuff is different. But just for that entry its best to concentrate on how it is in the show. She is a good example of the trope. She lets Bill rescue her quite often. Lets not make things confusing by adding examples of how the show is different from the books as in guidelines Conversation On The Main Page. I also reinstated your point about puns. I didn't erase it, but someone did, probably in an effort to stop the nonsense. Lets just leave it as is for compromise. I am aware that puns have a long history. I even added the famous pun from the Bible.
Daphne never said that The Maneads were a Satanic club. She was saying that throughout the ages people have worshipped the base instincts of humanity. The need to be free to do what feels good without moral inhibition. That is what is worshipped as Bacchus, and as Gaea, and as the horned Wiccan god, and as the Christian Satan. All these religions encouraged freedoms from morality, or even thought. Just a following of your instinct. That is what Maryanns god is. he was called Bacchus, but in time this force was worshipped as other things, the most recent being Satan.They researched these things quite well, especially as many of the same things are sacred to these same dietieslike the goat head(Bacchus and Satan), the pomegranite (Demeter and Bacchus) and so forth. Now you may not like this idea. Thats fine, but its hardly an ill researched or ignorant one. Saying that Daphne thinks Bacchus is Satan is simply not true. Oh, also Dyonisus is Bacchus. One is just his Greek name, the other is his Latin name for the same god. And Satan is not merely a trickster. The Bible says that Lucifer's first sin is rebellion. And Satan is known to have many names. The Hebrew word Satan merely means adversary. One who opposes that which is good and decent. See how it all fits?
Paradisca Corbasi: There is already a Trope listing for The Sookie Stackhouse Mysteries.
_____ herne_the_hunted: Removed Sookie's dreams about Eric with a gooey centre from foreshadowing. I know this is something out of the books, but Eric's characterization on the TV show so far has been so different, even if they do the relevant plot, we don't know if he will have a characterization even remotely close to Dream Eric. That specific Eric from the books was supposed to be like his human self - does the OP really believe Viking Eric from the TV show was cuddly?
ETA: I also removed Eric being just intrigued by Lafayette because he's a friend of Sookie in Hoyay, because we have Word of God - as said in the article itself - that it is more than that.
I've also taken out the examples about Eric - what is it with him today - from Love Hurts. If you're already saying it probably doesn't belong there, it's likely natter.
I've also removed a lot of natter which was mostly comments not really adding anything; I've greatly changed the entry for Jerkass vampires, because there was a whole debate going on there, which I edited out.
The naked Eric thing is kind of gross. In any case the fact that he is naked in a certain episode just does not fit the guidelines of this place. It's natter, and Im taking it out. Not trying to ruin anything for his fangirls, its just not the right place for that info.
JurassicMosquito: Removed a lot of Conversation In The Main Page, and there's a record of it in the edit history. I think Lollipopfop is Just Trying to Help, but there were a couple spots that seemed to verge on vandalism. Was I the only one who thought so?
Hi. Its me. Lolli. I don't see how it is vandalism to add an example of "Did not do the research", "Broken Aesop", and add Bill to the "badass" trope. I have now added Eric to the Jerkass trope, and added a phrase about him calling Lorena and tricking Sookie. I thought it was in character for him. I just wanted you to know that it wasn't vandalism. It is my opinion. Id hope thats all right. If you point out what rule you think Im breaking, then Ill stop. Other then that, I thought the whole point of this was to add examples of how TB uses tropes. Im not erasing anyones entries, and Im quite sure my spellings mistakes are greatly exaggerated. As for my grammatical errors, let me say my shift button fails me sometimes, so some letters that should be capitalized are not. My apologies. I think I might just have a viewpoint you personally don't like. You think puns are high humor. Well, I disagree. I think there is no historical basis for saying that. Samuel Johnson, a pretty smart and literary guy born in the 17th Century, obviously thought they were low humor. So, we know how puns were thought of four centuries ago. I added that if you find some writing that calls them high humor, proving that Ms Harris might have done the same, Ill remove it. As for my intentions; I was simply adding my thoughts. If you don't like my examples, take them to the "it just bugs me" page or wherever else and see what people think. I have added my two cents worth to this since the fourth season of Buffy ( so Im sure you know what I think of your "Just trying to help") and no one else has ever had a problem with me before.
My naming the characters for the estrogen brigade was just joking. It most certainly was not out of line, nor was it vandalism, but if it bugs you, then by all means erase it. But for my other two entries they are legit, and I am very curious how you could possibly think they are not. I rather think you erased some other tropers entries too. Ill let them deal with that.
I do notice there are plenty of other cases of natter, misspelling and worse in the TB article, so Im not sure you should be singling me out. If it makes you upset to have Conversation In The Main Page you need to remove all of them starting at the top. Either be consistent and erase all the explanations and playful entries, or else leave all of them. You can't blame me for doing what everyone else does. There are also plenty of examples of tropers commenting on the quality of writing. At least about other shows. I see someone below had the opinion that the swearing and sex ruined the show. As Adaptation Decay. It got erased for being They Changed It, Now It Sucks!? Its not my entry, but this is a bit of a concerning trend, isn't it? I am also a fan of the show, and I respect you feeling it is always well done, but you know how mileage is. It would really sadden me to think that any critical opinion of the show were considered vandalism.
JurassicMosquito: For the pun thing, read farther down on this discussion page, for the Natter thing, I did remove every example I could find, starting with the top—yours were the most recent and the most outstanding, and for the rest, if you know you shouldn't add conversation to the main page, then how on earth do you justify adding more by saying, "Well, everyone else is doing it?" That just makes the problem worse. I'm not trying to make you feel persecuted, and I'm glad you aren't trying to vandalize. If you'll notice, I did leave Broken Aesop in there; I simply shrank it down so that it didn't take up half the page.
Thing is, Jurassic Mosquito, you simply remove the comments you didn't agree with, and left the ones you liked. I did read below. I responded there too. You keep bringing up Conversations Onthe Main Page as the reason for not liking my point about puns. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. I usually don't mind people responding to challenge what I say. I like to know what people think. But, as you wish to remove all natter, then I will need to remove your response about the Norse liking puns. Just as you seem to keep removing my comment that it is very logical to say that the diety Dionysis is similar to the Christian Devil. (Not the same as, but a similar spirit.). There is no reason for some objection of Your Milage May Vary to be erased, and others to be included. We just need to decide which way to go. But it is not OK for you to allow it when you like, and erase it when you don't. My vote is to leave peoples comments alone. After all this is a democratic place, and its not protocol, but the opinions which are of interest to all. But Ill go either way here. Just lets stop picking out certain kinds of opinons and "cleaning them up".
JurassicMosquito: I didn't make the comment about the Norse liking puns. I didn't even know they did like puns. Whoever's comment it was, it wasn't mine. I didn't remove your comment about Dionysus, either. And while there was someone who went through and removed a bunch of natter about a day or so after I did, that person wasn't me. I am not in an Edit War with you. In fact, I have—when I remember to—double-checked who added comments, and gone out of my way to avoid removing yours. If your comments are still being deleted, I'm not doing it except incedentally. I haven't made major changes to this article in weeks. Check the page history if you like.
Indigo: It's Not A Subversion that Lafayette is a gay man who only acts Camp Gay intentionally when he's working or trying to make a point? It seems to me the Camp Gay moments are rarer than his 'just plain guy' ones.
- Removed *** This troper disagrees that Tara's drunk mother is the worst problem - Sookie being molested by her uncle is pretty far up the sucky problem scale. because while it is a terrible problem, it's not one of the Unfortunate Implications.
- Character Derailment: Tara went from a gainfully employed former child abuse victim to a loudmouthed, "sassy black" who couldn't hold a job. Jason went from a good-natured if somewhat dopey womanizer to a kinky-sex obsessed, vampire-hating bigot with an addiction to vamp blood. Lafayette went from a minor character mentioned a couple of times as being gay or wearing makeup to a flamboyant Camp Gay steroetype who is a total hedonist and general asshole and becomes a major character. Not that I'm bitter or anything...
HeartBurn Kid: I'm just now catching up on Season 1, but all three of those "became" bits were rather patently obvious in the first episode. Does it count as Character Derailment if they're like that from the beginning?
fleb: Pay no attention to the IP address behind the curtain, it's just some vaguely prudish They Changed It, Now It Sucks! fanperson who isn't aware Character Derailment occurs within a continuity and isn't Adaptation Decay. Which is also getting axed:
- Adaptation Decay: Took a series of books that were basically sex-free (except for Sookie and Bill) and putting in about 15 minutes of totally gratuitous porn-quality sex that has no bearing to the plot. No, I do not want to watch people fucking (or masturbating for that matter), thank you very much. And speaking of "fucking," so much gratuitous cussing was added that it gave this troper the feeling of watching Scarface. It was a shame, because the parts that focused on Sam, Sookie, and Bill were actually quite good and true to the book, but the cussing and sex absolutely ruined what could have been an excellent series.
Lolli: Im sorry, fleb. I agree its a bit prudish. But it seems like a case of adaptation decay. The whole point of TCNIS is that they think its bad just because its not word for word. Aren't they saying they don't like that they sexed up the couples besides Sookie and Bill? As for Tara you have to admit she got rather harsh as the person here is saying. Half the stuff coming out of TV Tara's mouth would melt Book Tara's ears. Maybe Character derailment is a bit strong, but we want a well rounded list of opinions.
Paradisca Corbasi: Do we have a trope for someone who has an anachronistic speech pattern from being from another time? Bill has that in spades. He speaks like the man of 140 years ago that he is. Not so much Eric that I can determine. Or Pam. I looked in the Dialogue but didn't see what I was looking for.
dysfunction: What's up with the last line on the page,
- In True Blood, vampires have come "out of the coffin." Unfortunately, God hates Fangs.
Shouldn't this be the example for Anvilicious?
Broken Chaos: Pulled that line for now. Someone categorize it (I'm not sure Anvilicious fits, and I haven't watched the series), and I imagine it could go back in if it actually fits to a trope in the series. It seems more like either a somewhat-throwaway pun (if the line is used in the series), or just someone who came up with a possibly witty line looking to throw it on the page somewhere. Copied below with all the original markup.
- In True Blood, vampires have to come "out of the coffin." Unfortunately, God hates Fangs.
Pinata: I'd say that we can take the Pot Hole out of the line and just add Van Helsing Hate Crimes (where it directs us to when we click on it anyway) to the list of tropes associated with the show. But I'm reluctant to do this until someone seconds the motion.
Tem Bojigin: There are several Crowning Moments of Funny that should be added to this page including: "I've never done it...with a girl" "What have you done it with?" said in a tone that implies she's guessing farm-animals or something.
JurassicMosquito: At risk of sounding snappishly sarcastic, shouldn't the Crowning Moments of Funny go on the Crowning Moments Of Funny page? There's a spot for them and everything under Live Action TV.
- Pinata: They should be listed in both places. At least, that's how I've usually seen it done.
Spark: Just did a little housekeeping. Removed this from Older Than They Think:
- I think you misunderstand. The point being that the show came out after Meyers books were made into film, thus greenlighting for other similar projects like the making of True Blood. No one is arguing that the Southern Vampire books predate the Twilight saga. Of course we could call them both rip offs of Anne Rice, who predates both, or even Laurell Hamilton who does it better then both, right? The truth is probably that BTVS is what greenlit TB.
Due to it being Conversation In The Main Page, and removed a lengthy spiel on how Charlaine Harris Did Not Do The Research on puns vis-a-vis their status as "low humor" vs. "high humor". Puns date back to The Bible, and I can find no mention of them being "low humor" prior to Samuel Johnson declaring them so. As wordplay, it seems likely that they would be a form of "high humor", seeing as "low humor" is reserved more for physical comedy. If someone can find evidence otherwise, feel free to let me know. I also cleaned up several entries, most likely by the same person, fixing general spelling and grammar issues and rewording them to be more in line with entry guidelines.
I am the person who added that point to Did Not Do The Research. You must have thought that it was a reply to a post, but it is a completely separate entry. It has nothing to do with Conversation In The Main Page. That talks about natter and adding debates. I just put in too much info. I apologize about that. But, my point is solid. I will reword it to include that puns have always been around. If you do find historical evidence saying that puns are a form of high humor, or that low humor has to have physical elements only and no words, (puns can be accompanied by gestures) proving that Ms Harris could have had a reason to declare them high humor, let me know. Then I will remove it. I know my account of puns being used by Shakespeare to keep the interest of the commoners was OTT. But I did want to give more evidence other then the famous quote of Samuel Johnson. I always add too much info. At this point I can give examples of puns as low humor with the vulgar jesters of Renaissance plays and such. So that proves at the very least that it was both. This already contradicts Bills words in the books.
Tem Borjigin Except for the vampires specified in the books as dressing noramlly, such as Pam, all the vamps dress in Nu-Dracula outfits with lots of black. Even Eric has a black leather jacked with the collar turned up at least part of the time. I don't know which, if any, trope this would fit under. Can anyone think of something, or is this simply a nameless quirk?
- JurassicMosquito: That should be a trope. Vampires Wear Black, or something. If only because you could make a pun about it not being an Undead Horse Trope despite it actually being about the undead. :)
- I don't know. Sure all vampires wear black. They often wear Armani too. Agnel just loved Armani. But then where does that stop? Teenaged girls in teen dramas wear nothing but jeans and sexy tops for episodes on end. Only the slutty girl will be the one to wear a mini skirt. But maybe we should have a They Are In Uniform trope for all comers?
Tricky Pacifist: I have to contest the assertion in Surprisingly Improved Sequel that "the books are what could be charitably described as light beach reading." (Especially if we take "the books" to mean the entire series, rather than the ones which have just been adapted so far. I find Harris' characterization incredible, her plotting remarkable (certainly from Club Dead onwards), her depiction of human (you know what I mean) relationships beautifully complex, and her philosophical themes quite robust. By all means leave the example, but let's give the books their due.
herne_the_hunted:@Tricky Pacifist I do disagree on the literary merit of the books, but I certainly don't want to offend anyone, so I'm taking it out.
Tricky Pacifist: @herne_the_hunted, Thanks, that's very considerate of you.
Took out those examples in Narm which according to discussion were likely intentional humour instead.
For Narm, I changed the accent entry a bit. I don't think you can really say there are "many" foreign actors - of the regulars, its only four people in a cast of around fifteen, and one of them plays a character who is neither American nor speaking with a Southern accent. Besides, when it comes to the accent very few people complain about Kwanten, while a lot of the American actors have been criticized as much as Paquin or Moyer. (And last but not least, I do honestly believe that Sookeeeh! is bloody hilarious.)
