This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Janitor: Priceless, Kimiko Muffin! So on.
Robert: Good trope, but Lord of the Rings isn't a good example. Men, elves, and dwarves all slipped back drastically during the third age, just as they had during the second, and earlier. One of the many themes of LotR is that the world is running down, passing 'from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin'. This is contrary to real history, but it's not stasis.
Kimiko Muffin: True. In LotR's case, though, I was thinking more along the lines of specifically the technological level (Orthanc notwithstanding).
Robert: Orthanc is not an exception; it's the rule. Everything from late Numenor/early Gondor was built to the same standard. They probably didn't have our kind of high tech (Tolkien considered, but eventually abandoned, the idea of the Numenoreans having steam engines and planes) but they weren't a low tech culture.
A lot of fantasy has a golden age in the past, followed by medieval stasis. The golden age produced all the artefacts of ultimate power, and was brought down by the Sealed Evil in a Can. Tolkien had a fairly steady decline from his golden age, no stasis. His imitators have simplified this.
Fast Eddie: Got caught by an expired lock.
I should probably stay out of this, but I'm not that smart. Millenniums are pretty big critters. Let us compare, say, Tolkien's nineteenth century in England with 100 BC England. The very language of the place was different (proto-Brythonic, more Celt than otherwise). The entire concept of multi-tribal (inter-Clan) co-operation was unformed. The notion of "King" had no meaning. None. Clans were led — when they bothered to acknowledge leadership at all — by, basically, somebody with a loud voice who had cowed the council.
The very structure of human group interaction was utterly divergent, in short, from the Medieval form. Tolkien proposes that the Medieval form remained in place for many thousands of years, which I shall read as at least three millenniums. Humans, mind you, not long-lived Elves. I have to call shenanigans.
Licky Lindsay: Does Star Wars exhibit this trope? Granted I don't know jack about the Expanded Universe (and honestly not much desire to learn), but one doesn't get the impression that technology or society changed all that much during all those centuries of the Republic's existence. With the Clone Wars, military (but not necessarily civilian) technology started to advance at least in terms of things like X-Wings and Tie Fighters being invented sometime between ROTS and ANH... not to mention Death Stars. But the basics of lightspeed, blasters, and lightsabers doesn't seem to have changed much even then.
Seven Seals: Oh yes it does. The most egregious example is Knights of the Old Republic, which, as the name implies, is set when the Republic is still very much alive and Jedi are commonplace — about 4000 years before the events in ANH. In 4000 years, the only changes will be that people will forget how to make personal energy shields or blades that can withstand lightsabers (not surprising, since they were invented on the spot). Sure, no X-Wings or Tie Fighters yet, but space travel is the same. Even the droids look the same. As if that wasn't enough, KOTOR alludes to a more powerful and technologically more advanced empire that existed before the republic, and its sequel repeats that the Jedi of even-more-ancient were more kickass than the Jedi of 4000 years ago, who are in turn more kickass than the ones running around in the second trilogy. So technology in the Star Wars universe seems to mostly stand still, while skill in the Force is running down.
Rob Mandeville: The Star Wars world may be a justified case of this. Remember, we're on a steep point on the technology curve; we've only had steam power for a few hundred years, and computers less than one hundred. Technologies we have had for a thousand years or so, such as bridge-building, doesn't progress so fast; in fact, the only reason we can build bridges better than we could twenty years ago is because of other new technologies like computer assisted engineering and larger construction equipment.
The world of Star Wars, OTOH, has had technologies up to and including hyperdrive for thousands of years. There may simply be very little left to invent that's worth the effort. That is, they may be on a part of the curve where any visible improvement would cost entirely too much for the benefit.
We do see one new technology being born in this universe, and it's the Death Star itself. Nobody's built one before because nobody's had both the motivation and the money. There's no military need for a Death Star; Imperial star destroyers can destroy all life on planet in a matter of days. Reducing a world to asteroids is overkill. But what the Death Star does that normal star destroyers don't is strike pants-wetting fear into the hearts of planetary governers who considered joining the Alliance. The only reason it was built was because a Sith Lord got the power to tax the galaxy, and he wanted a really big toy.
Sure, you could build hyperintelligent droids. Sure, you can build a bigger gun. Sure, you can make a more capable clone. Each may cost the equivalent of trillions of dollars to research, on this flat part of the tech curve. Why bother?
Licky Lindsay: is there a trope for Middle Earth In Space ?
Robert: On the other hand, Fast Eddie, how much did Ancient Egypt change between 2500 BC and 500 BC. Not half as much as England, in the period you named, but then the industrial revolution is an historical freak. There's no such thing as a single normal rate of societal change - and the lords of Gondor were long lived even at the end of the Third Age.
Now, there probably should have been more change, but the intentional inclusion of any change is enough to make LotR a poor example of stasis.
Fast Eddie: Licky, is there an example of Middle Earth In Space? Honest question.
Actually, Robert, not a bad point. Could you say, though, that the Medieval form — peasants having access to distance weapons and iron, yet still being subservient to a lord — would have gone that distance?
Licky Lindsay: Fast Eddie, I was referring to what Seven Seals said about Star Wars. Just like LOTR (and other fantasy), it seems like Star Wars sets up a golden age from which everything declines. Maybe Star Wars is a unique example so it isn't a trope.
Fast Eddie: Oh. <abashed> I get it, now. </abashed> Isn't there a Golden Age entry? (//later: Yes, there is. It is all about comic books, though..) Anyway, the "Once-things-were-good, Now? Not-so-much thing." is a good trope. Just not this one.
(On a personal aside: Licky, fill in your contributor page. Just "I'm Licky, and pretty," would do. Those red letters are so unbecoming.)
Ununnilium: Since we seem to be in agreement that LOTR is a bad example, pulling it out:
- Tolkien may have provided one of the earliest examples, if not the earliest, of the trope; the technological and social levels of Middle-Earth in The Lord Of The Rings are nearly identical to those of Beleriand in The Silmarilion six thousand years earlier, with only linguistic differences to tell the ages apart.
Licky Lindsay: is the presence of this trope in works influenced by LOTR an example of The Theme Park Version?
Ununnilium: Yes. Heck, the trope itself is part of The Theme Park Version of history.
Robert: Russia still had serfs in the 1800's, long after the peasants first got iron and distance weapons. The idea that the end of medievalism was inevitable is another part of The Theme Park Version of history. Technologies can progress while social structure remains stagnant, or regresses, and vice versa. There has been a pretty steady improvement in technology throughout history, even during the several dark ages, largely because the societies that didn't keep up with that arms race got wiped out by their neighbors, but it could have stalled short of the industrial revolution, and the social trends have not been likewise linear.
Thus, a fictional history where absolutely nothing changes over millennia is bad, but one with consistent social trends over so long a time is little better. Real history is more complicated than that, because people are.
Ununnilium: For that reason, took out the last bit of the Chrono Trigger example.
Fast Eddie: in response to ...
- Technologies can progress while social structure remains stagnant ...
First of all ... the 1800's were the 17th century, right? I was always get confused by that. Frack it. In 1807, there were peasants in Russia. In 1907, there were armed insurrection-istas looking to bust a cap in the Czar's six.
(BTW, Robert, arguing with you is fun. No animosity intended.)
Colin: If I remember my history class correctly, it was 1917, the 1800's were the 19th century, the peasants didn't have much say in the matter, and the revolution arguably changed little.
Fast Eddie: Yeah, let us quibble over ten years when millenniums are at issue. As for the rest .. the Russian peasants kicked the Russian aristos out on their ears. They went a weird, unworkable way after that, but they did the kickin'.
Colin: Sorry, I tend to be a nitpicker (on the note, the Russian peasants didn't go a weird, unworkable way, it was all Lenin and Bolshevik). And speaking of how long there were Russian peasants, China had peasants longer, at least to the 1940's.
Ununnilium: It seems to me that peasanthood lasts until things get really bad — normal peasantiness isn't enough to induce revolution.
Robert: Serfdom officially ended in Russia in 1861, on the orders of the Tsar. Interestingly, it was a reaction to contact with Western Europe, not an indigenous development. Likewise, the communists got their idea from Marx, who lived in London. It's unprovable, but it seems plausible that if Russia had been left to its own devices it would have stagnated - all the changes were due to new ideas coming from the west. Struggling peasants are not likely to think up a new theory of government, especially when times are bad.
Colin: And the same can be said of China.
Nornagest: I'm not sure China is a good example. Its technological development was fantastically quick, outpacing pretty much every other country, until 1000 AD give or take a few centuries. After that it slowed down considerably, and finally stagnated until the colonial powers took it over.
Ununnilium: Actually, I think it's a perfect example - technology can move super-fast or super-slow, depending on a huge raft of factors. Same for social progress.
Fast Eddie: Okay, you Tropers are forcing me to get all political up in here. You cannot declare the official end of serfdom by fiat. Technology and social progress are separate issues. Tech-progressive cultures can be be socailly regressive. Big time.
Peasants always come up with the new form of government.
Boobah: Definite disagreement there; you can't have prisoners without agriculture. You can't have gender equality without machines and medicine. You can't have serfdom with cheap, fast transportation.
Second, peasants don't have the time or education to start revolutions. That usually takes disaffected rich boys.
Ununnilium: Guys? These things have been debated for hundreds, nay thousands of years. I don't think we're going to settle them on a Wiki discussion page.
In summary, there are a lot of different ways a society can change, but total lack of change is never realistic.
Ununnilium: Dangit:
- Done to aggravating perfection in The Lord Of The Rings where, barring the bad guy's sudden industrial revolution at the end of the book to hammer in the Science Is Bad Aesop, technology, culture, and society remain otherwise the same.
LOTR is not an example. >> See discussion above.
Tanto: Wow, this is the third different person to put LOTR in there. Taking it out, again.
Morgan Wick: That's usually a sign we need to put it in with a description of why it's not an example.
Duckluck: A couple things on the Dungeons and Dragons examples (because I'm just that nerdy). First of all, how dare anyone call Planescape bizarre?! I demand satisfaction! On a calmer note, Eberron would actually be a prime example of this trope if it weren't justified by being set After the End (in this case, they have a different End of the World as We Know It event every few thousand years), but the fact remains that there are ancient civilizations from 60,000 years ago with pretty much the same tech as the present. Also the entry seems a little bit forgiving of the Forgotten Realms. The Realms basically have two time periods: The Present: where massive world shaping events happen on a yearly basis and there's a powerful wizard hiding behind every rock, and The Past: where world shaping events only happen every thousand years or so, but there are even more wizards and more powerful ones at that.
Ununnilium: Could put Ebberon in as a Justified Trope version.
Fast Eddie: Pulled out a bacth of non-evidence ...
- Exception: Chrono Trigger, in which nearly every era has its own look and level of technology, although 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D. don't seem all that different, other than Mad Scientist Lucca and her father's inventions. In Chrono Cross it's stated that another country studied her inventions, and used technological advancement to bring the world to the next level by force.
- Averted in Steven Brust's world of Dragaera, albeit with mystic development instead of technological. The thousand years between The Phoenix Guards and Taltos have seen such important spell innovations as resurrection, teleportation, and telepathic contact, as well as the obsolescence of the wand-like flash-stones. Bear in mind that a thousand years is less than the lifetime of the average Dragaeran. Of course, the Empire has been in existence for a quarter of a million years, and in all that time the Easterners, who are humans with comparatively shorter lifespans, don't seem to have changed at all. The Dragaeran invasions probably don't help, though.
- Averted in Katherine Kerr's Deverry novels, in which the main setting is, roughly speaking, the Middle Ages with variant Celtic social structures, while the numerous Flash Back sequences show various levels of development from the original Iron Age Gaulish settlers.
Peteman: does anyone else think the Warhammer 40 K entry needs pruning given the extensive (and in some cases unrelated) natter?
Brickie: Definitely. Is that better?
Brickie: One thing that I've often wondered is - are there any examples out there of works which specifically avert this trope by presenting a world with broadly 20th Century technology/social situation but populated by Elves, Dwarves, orcs etc? It's an idea I've had for this year's Na No Wri Mo, but I'm curious to see if there's any previous in the genre.
INH: For the past year, I've been working on a D 20 Modern campaign setting based on exactly that idea. A world that was a typical Medieval European Fantasy setting 600 years ago, but now has roughly the same technology level and social situation as present day Earth, while retaining all of the fantastic elements (elves, dwarves, dragons, wizards, etc.). I haven't been able to find anything else with that basic concept, or at least not any finished projects. The closest are probably settings that use Magitek in place of technology, like Tales Of Mu or Dominic Deegan.
Anon: Discworld is rapidly approaching this kind of idea. It started out as a kind of pastiche of fantasy cliches leavened with with sci-fi concepts and broad anachronism, but over time both magiktek and "real" technology have advanced well into the industrial revolution (although it is definitely still hit and miss), including such things as newspapers, cameras, guns, rock and roll, birth control, and so on. The anachronisms that remain are generally played for laughs.
jwdoom: MalazanBookoftheFallen isn't really an example of this trope. The back story is in a Stone Age and the arc is in an Iron Age (with magic). The world has undergone a series of recurring disasters rather than stasis. Details are spoilery and I can't be sure spoilers are welcome on discussions. On that note I'm new here, is recurring disaster/extinction a trope? I searched for it but couldn't find it.
Kalaong: Where would civilizations which are prevented from reaching The Singularity by Obstructive Bureaucrats go? I used to try and slot them here, but they keep getting deleted without comment. They're not technically Feudal Future - though it often ends up like that. It's a common way for authors to get away with hundred-year backstories without civilization becoming unrecognizable.
- Jerry Pournelle's Co Dominium: The Bureau Of Technology have gone even further - not only is technology policed, but all records have been contaminated with false data; people know how to build the stuff they use, but are ignorant of the underlying principles that make them work. After the Dirty Communists and Eagleland wipe each other out, say hello to the Empire of Man.
- Dune: Even calculators are illegal because of the Butlerian Jihad. Definitely feudal, definitely futuristic.
- Larry Niven's Known Space: The ARM polices all technology which could be turned into a Weapon of Mass Destruction - and every technology has a destructive use, so the only new technologies in the series are the ones they're unable to suppress quickly. The ARM don't call themselves royalty, but they're the only ones who choose who gets weapons - and before you ask, the answer is NO unless Earth itself is being attacked by man-eating cats. Then they pass them out once the surplus population is cut down a bit.
- Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Commonwealth: After a bunch of Morally Ambiguous Doctors attempted to breed some Gattaca Babies with Psychic Powers, The Government banned research into the genetics of sapient lifeforms. Hollywood Cyborgs are nowhere to be seen. Only backwaters are feudal, just like The Federation.
- Schlock Mercenary: 31st-century technology is powerful but familiar because "(The Gatekeepers) were suppressing technology, per a treaty with the Pa'anuri."
- Star Wars: Artificial Limbs are considered vulgar, and Sith Alchemy is worse than planetbusting. Princesses abound, but they're elected. While still teenagers.
- Star Trek: In The Federation, Hollywood Cyborgs are illegal, and Genetic Engineering Is the New Nuke because of the Eugenics Wars. Only backwaters are feudal.
- Warhammer 40 K: Not by a long shot; Even more feudal and futuristic than Dune, but you can't swing a chainsword without hitting a cybernetic slave or a Super-Soldier grown from a "gene seed" in Power Armor. It only dodges The Singularity because all that technology is focused on continuing The Eternal Churchill.
Peteman: Removed this because it didn't seem to know what it was saying. Is it a subversion, aversion, not bothering with this trope at all... what?
- Partially subverted in Dominic Deegan, wherein technology stagnates in favor of magic, but social values are much more equivalent to modern day. Magic colleges seem to be roughly equivalent in purpose to today's academic colleges, the common folk are relatively well off, doing at least as well most modern first-world citizens, and there is a fully advertised sin city in Erossus, which is disliked but tolerated by more moral characters. Most races get along reasonably well, though Orcs are treated as second class citizens in human lands, they are not generally killed BECAUSE they are Orcs, though there are murderous racists who do just kill orcs because they are orcs. The setting generally comes off as how the modern world would be if set in a fantasy setting.
- Not only is that Not A Subversion, it's not Medieval Stasis either, which is about how a society changes over time (or doesn't), not how much it's like ours right now.
