I think it is a smart move to split them into those categories. I got a list of names I want to add, mostly offensive players who were good running backs like Priest Holmes, Eddie George, and Earnest Byner. I also got one offensive linemen in Willie Roaf and one tight end in Ben Coates and one kicker in Matt Stover in my To-Do list.
I'll get to work on it later this evening, have some other work I have to get done first. Holmes, George, and Roaf are names I've considered adding; the rest don't personally stand out as super trope-y to me, but if you've got a spin on them that works I can't say there's any harm in adding them. I've mostly exhausted my to-do list, but I'm always finding characters that make me do a double-take and question how I've missed them. Going back through the Super Bowls rn for another project, that's kept me busy.
I usually try to go after those who hold or once held records for their positions or committed a moment that is forever associated with a playoff game, like Byner's fumble. Matt Stover is one I'm trying to figure out, as he holds the record for consecutive extra points made, and might hold it permanently since NFL rule changes relating to extra point attempts starting in 2015.
Edited by wesker56
I was wondering where Bernard Pollard would fit. The guy was known for being a vicious hitter, and if you ask Patriots fans, a rather polarizing figure, as he was responsible for taking out Tom Brady, Wes Welker, Rob Gronkowski, and Stefan Ridley. His hit on Tom Brady was one of the hits the NFL cited in adding a rule change in 2009 stipulating that defenders can't lunge or dive at a quarterback's lower legs.
Hide / Show Replies
Id put him on Notorious; didnt win Pro Bowls, really just known now for injuring people and bragging about it
I was thinking that. Being involved in the injuries of four players is something that seems weird. The only one that he had little to no fault in was the Stefan Ridley, as Ridley initiated the helmet to helmet contact. But the Tom Brady incident was dirty, and changed the course of the Patriots season, as New England struggled to a 10-6 record.
I have been thinking, since I seen Claystripe say this page is getting long, if it would be better to shorten team names to their nicknames, where possible. For example, instead of saying Pittsburgh Steelers, Chicago Bears, Green Bay Packers, Minnesota Vikings, saying Steelers and the like would be easier, as no other NFL team has used the nickname.
Hide / Show Replies
I've been keeping the locations in the names a) to give each entry a standard format, b) to help with search functionality, and c) to help each entry to stand on its own in case someone is just looking for a certain player. However, if anyone agrees with Wesker, I'd be willing to put in the change, as it would likely help reduce the page length by maybe a thousand characters; not a massive reduction, but perhaps a worthwhile one.
That would be fine I think. Also, keep in mind that if we are getting close to the page limit, it isn't a huge deal to split the page. Since we already have a QB sub-page, another for other offensive positions and another for defense/special teams would probably set us up for a long time.
Yeah, I think that just splitting is preferable. Do we want to toss around ideas for the page names now so we can quickly proceed when it gets to that point? My one hesitation with splitting off Defense and Special Teams is that National Football League Defense And Special Team Players is way too unwieldy; think just "Defensive Players" would be fine and the relatively small number of special teamers could just sit here in perpetuity, but maybe there's a more concise name we could use Im not thinking of
Edited by Claystripe
Eh, length of the name isn't a huge deal. Some of the character pages for works (which is essentially what this is for the NFL) get very long and specific. They only show up at full length in a small number of places (NFL main page, top of each other "Names to Know" pages), so it wouldn't be too bad. Plus, it would best just to retire this page entirely rather than keep some examples on it. What if we just shorten "National Football League" to "NFL" in the titles? Leave it as is for Quarterbacks since that's already established, but the others can be "NFL Offensive Players", "NFL Defensive and Special Teams Players".
I think calling it NFL would be best, as about everybody else calls a sports league by the abbreviation or acronym nowadays.
Also, I think dividing up by positions would be best for offensive and defensive players. But special teams could be left alone, as most of it is kickers, and all the noteworthy kickers have been covered in great detail.
Edited by wesker56
Dividing by positions would be a great way to ensure we never need to divide the pages again... but I doubt that will be necessary. The character count for the Offensive section is ~150,000, Defense is ~100,000, Special is ~40,000. I rather doubt that the Offense section will double in size any time soon, but I'm also not totally against just dividing up the whole page just in case if that's what people are feeling.
Let's stick with the Offense and Defense/Special Teams split. No need for more pages than necessary at this stage.
Heel
Shoud there be a section for people who became famous outside of football?
I no longer edit on TV Tropes but will continue as an occasional forum poster. Hide / Show Replies
I don't think so. The college football page just lists them under their position folder.
Alright, the page is officially too long (or was until I cut it down a bit, but it'll get there as soon as someone wants to add another player).
I know that we've discussed earlier dividing the page into offense and non-offense, but after thinking about it further, grouping defense and special teams together seems weird. Could we instead perhaps keep this page intact as an index and swap out folders for links to other pages when they get too lengthy? I've been thinking that quarterbacks should probably just have their own page for awhile now, especially since its folders alone are quite a bit longer than a Defense/Special Teams page would be.
Hide / Show Replies
Creating the additional sub-pages seems fine. (So "Names to Know" with a link to a quarterbacks page, others as needed down the line.) It's what I've done/seen done elsewhere in similar circumstances.
Does anyone else agree that this page needs to a) be divided into more subpages and b) have a lot of the minutiae and natter trimmed out?
Hide / Show Replies
It was already split off of the main National Football League page when it got too long. Unless it's close to being too long again, I'd prefer it all remain in one page. The folders do a good job of keeping it manageable.
What are some examples of the minutiae and natter that you would remove?
I don't really mind the length of some of the entries- certainly the greats deserve the extra detail and record-setting/career overall stats are fine. But I feel things like Mark Sanchez's post-Jets career can be summed up with "he bounced around a few teams as a backup" rather than listing each team.
Edited by Claystripe
Yeah, that's fair. Many of the active players get "year by year" updates which are annoying after a few years, leading to examples like that. I'd say feel free to trim those down and if someone feels strongly about something that is removed, they can always add it back. Beauty of a wiki.
EDIT: One day I'll figure out how the discussion page works.
Edited by Claystripe
Thoughts on swapping Whizzer White with Red Grange? If we're talking historical significance to the position, Grange casts a longer shadow and came much earlier.
Hide / Show Replies
I'd lean more toward just adding White into the general RB mix. I've never really liked having a few specific players above the list, even with historical significance.
What are folks' thoughts on splitting up some of the bigger folders? Quarterbacks by last name, dividing defensive players by position?
Hide / Show Replies
Seems fine. I'd add in section dividers (!!Offense, !!Defense/Special Teams) for organization.
I was thinking that, too. Would make it easier for when this page inevitably gets divided for (hopefully) the last time.
We're officially there- the page is too big and needs to be broken up. How do we want to do this, give each folder its own page? I can also see us just breaking off the Draft Bust page for now.
Edited by Claystripe Hide / Show Replies
I'm thinking one for Notable Players (the current page can just be left) and a new page for Notorious/Draft Busts. Seems like a good way to break it up.
Thank you so much! Had a funeral to attend yesterday, didn't have the time to do it then. Thank you so much also for all that you've contributed to this page!
Funny that a few months ago I was wondering whether some of the entries ought to be trimmed down and now I've added 38 entries and a bunch more details to the page...
Anywho, I've got another few I wanted to add, one of which has been a bit hard to categorize. George Taliaferro was the first black player to be drafted in the NFL. Thing is, he played seven positions without really specializing in any of them as far as I can tell. He wasn't a great player as far as stats go, so he isn't in the Hall of Fame or especially famous, but he is definitely unique and historically significant. Should he have his own folder like Jim Thorpe, or do we want to keep that honor just for him? If not, probably the next best place to put him is special teams; he was, among other things, a punter and punt/kick returner, and the way he was used seems to fit more there. But he also started three games as a QB for the Colts, and it feels like it might be a disservice to keep him out? Idk.
Editing this page has been a fun hobby for the last two months while football's been gone. Currently working on adding a few more historic players- guys with notable records or fixtures on all-time lists, particularly on the defense.
I've got a question about the current categorization of the page. I actually rather like the "Notorious" category- it keeps guys who are much more known for their off-field actions apart from lists of guys who are known for their play. But there is weird subjectivity to it. Until recently, Kaepernick was on it for his activism, and there are still a few players on that list who didn't do anything "notorious" other than fail on-field but weren't drafted high enough to be busts. It feels weird to group those guys in with the majority of players on that list who are on it for cheating or committing violent crimes. And then there are the players like Jim Brown who have done worse stuff than many of these guys but you couldn't imagine leaving off the running back list.
I'm thinking about adding a note to the category, like the one on the "Draft Bust" list, that clarifies what a "Notorious Player" is for the purposes of this page- a player whose off-field actions surpassed their on-field accomplishments in the public imagination to such an extent that they define that player's narrative. I'd then consider moving players like Peterson and L.T. back to their position categories while retaining the information about their legal, personal, and moral trouble. I'm curious what ya'll think, though- would it be better just to rename the category to "Infamous Players" or leave a note that explains that this is a broad category?
Edited by Claystripe Hide / Show Replies
A separate category for players with "on-the-field" notoriety seems fine to me. As for moving some of the Ho F caliber players back to their position folders, I'm fine with that as well. I'd leave mention of their notorious acts there, but as you say, guys like Peterson and LT are far, far more notable for their on-field accomplishments.
Whelp, at 384,174 characters (64,065 words) as of my last concision-minded edit, it's officially time to split the page. Just want to check before doing it, we good with NFL Offensive Players and NFL Defensive and Special Teams Players as the new page names?
Hide / Show Replies