Child of Hurin
Responding to the edit reasoning as to why the 'Fallen Hero' trope was removed from the page...
"I agree that Daenerys is somewhat of a fallen hero, but the signs of her being a pyromaniacal tyrant have been clear for seasons so she was never that much of a hero to begin with. Also, what huge role did she play in the battle against the dead? She blasted a few wights with dragonfire and fought ineffectually on the ground. That's a role, but not a huge one. Arya, Beric, Sandor, Theon- they all played a much bigger role."
To the first point, Daenerys's instability and ruthlessness have been hinted at (and shown) previously, yes, but she was still willing to put her chance to defeat Cersei and claim the Iron Throne on the line if it meant averting human extinction. (You could argue she did it out of pragmatism, the White Walkers are coming to destroy the kingdom she wants to rule, after all, but plenty of people would have taken a 'not my problem' approach to things, which is exactly what Cersei did) As to the second point, her armies' presence at Winterfell was a deciding factor in the battle. Even Arya tells Jon and Sansa after the battle what essentially amounts to 'without her, we lose, period.' We can sit her all day and argue how much she personally contributed, but Dany remains at least a somewhat sympathetic character until half way through this episode, which is arguably the first time in the show she does something evil for unambiguously petty and self-absorbed reasons. (I'm sure she'll get some Draco in Leather Pants treatment, but what Dany does here is morally unjustifiable in just about any context, and in fact, antithetical the everything Dany once claimed she represented)
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Linking the entry in question:
- Fallen Hero: Consider that two episodes ago, Daenerys personally played a major role in helping to prevent the extinction of the human race. By the end of this episode, she has become what amounts to a mass-murderer, and looks on her way to becoming yet another ruthless, insane tyrant who feels the people are there to serve her, just like Cersei, Joffrey, and her father before her.
It is a bit negative and could use some modifications, but the argument itself is solid. I'd favor rewriting and restoring.
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
I'm not really good at this but to take away some of the negativity while describing just the facts without going overboard? Still too harsh? Changes are welcome!
- Fallen Hero: Consider that two episodes ago, Daenerys played a major in helping to prevent the extinction of the human race when she commits her armies and dragons in the battle against the Army of the Dead. By the end of this episode, she has mass murdered a large part of the population of King's Landing, needlessly burning it down after the city's surrender.
I'm not quite understanding some of these recent additions in regard to the bells:
- Tyrion tells Daenerys that the sign for surrender is the city ringing the bells and opening the gates, to which she seemingly assents before Daenerys tells Grey Worm to wait for her signal and he'll know what to do. In context the signal is a sign to begin the attack or siege. As is clear, the signal is Daenerys destroying the city gates all by herself well before anyone in King's Landing would be able to meet the second part of Tyrion's criteria.
I'm not sure what this means? Does this mean Daenerys destroying the city gates is the signal to begin the attack even in spite of surrender? Or am I missing what this example is saying? I'm hesitant to remove or edit in case I'm not understanding it right.
Greyworm was present at the discussion between Daenerys and Tyrion when Tyrion said, "Cersei's followers will abandon her if they know the war is lost. Give them that chance. If the city surrenders, they will ring the bells and raise the gates. Please, if you hear them ringing the bells, call off the attack."
From this, Greyworm knew the bells meant surrender, regardless of Dany burning down the gate and not KL raising the gate themselves. In this situation, I think it's pretty clear what the bells ringing mean — that the city is surrendering. The forces entered the city and met the Lannister soldiers, who they faced in a stand-off before a battle in the city occurred. Then the Lannister soldiers drop their weapons in clear defeat and the bells rang, making the surrender official.
Likewise, Grey Worm didn't lead the attack until Dany attacked. If there was a signal, I think that was it — after the surrender.
Am I misunderstanding something? Or what these examples are saying? If so, I apologize.
Edited by cherrychels Hide / Show Replies
I took it as Daenerys signaling Grey Worm to start going ape when she began her indiscriminate attack, so that is why I wrote the examples that were erased.
In the beginning, when she attacked the Golden Company from the rear, it's not only Unsullied that attack the city, but also Dothraki and Northmen, so that was NOT the signal. Grey Worm has command over the Unsullied and maybe the Dothraki, but not the Northmen.
Right! I took that as the signal too — when Dany started attacking indiscriminately, so did Grey Worm.
It's the bolded part in the example I quoted in the OP that I have questions about. It seems like it's saying that the signal to begin the indiscriminate attack was already given before the surrender because King's Landing didn't open the gates before Dany burned them down...?
That bold part reads like a wild guess. It's not like Daenerys needs a technicality in Tyrion's wording to begin the attack, and that is the reason why she destroys the gates. Daenerys does not need to prove anything to Tyrion to justify her attack because, well, it's an indiscriminate attack.
Yeah, that's what I thought. It feels like it's playing with wording to explain the indiscriminate attack — particularly since, per Inside the Episode, Dany decided to attack the civilians and soldiers after the city surrendered to her when she was perched on the walls of King's Landing as the bells rang.
Edited by cherrychels
I edited the entry to reflect what we talked about in this discussion. Feel free to correct it if there are any discrepancies.
I have not gathered up the questionable deletions yet, but we need to discuss deletions by Team Tony per this ATT: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=86205&type=att