Discussion History Characters / JoJosBizarreAdventureTeamBucciarati

The only time it is ever treated as a HeroicSacrifice and the entire spiel about her going off cause \\\"That\\\'s what Huntsmen do\\\" came in Volume 6 with the Red Haired Woman, and the scene reads like an attempted AuthorsSavingThrow. Except much like with their attempt to make Ruby come across as a better protagonist, said throw \\\'\\\'failed\\\'\\\'. People still questioned the logic and pointed out that if it was supposed to be an Aesop, it was a BrokenAesop that invoked numerous bouts of FridgeLogic.
* Just to list an example, even if pray tell she still thought along those lines, why didn\\\'t she call Glynda before doing her move? She sent Jaune away an emotional mess, and you expect her to trust \\\'\\\'him\\\'\\\', the dude who wears his heart on his sleeve and lets his emotions control him, to be rational and call her after that? You can\\\'t even argue there wasn\\\'t time to waste since a call would take less than a minute.
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So just as people point out that narratively Ruby doesn\\\'t come across as better like the AuthorsSavingThrow intended, it should be allowed to say that the narrative reason they gave for Pyrrha\\\'s death doesn\\\'t work.
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So it\\\'s complainey to point out FridgeLogic now huh? I\\\'m not complaining cause I\\\'m upset Ruby didn\\\'t wake up her powers to Penny\\\'s death, I questioning how the hell does \\\'\\\'any\\\'\\\' of it make sense with what the show established? According to Maria, to trigger the eyes, the user has to focus on the people they cared for, the people they loved and cherished. But by the logic of the show, Penny and Pyrrha were two people Ruby \\\'\\\'barely\\\'\\\' knew and was able to shrug off the deaths of in Volume 5, so they shouldn\\\'t fall under the umbrella of \\\"cared for\\\" or \\\"loved\\\".
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That\\\'s like me saying the guy I had a few classes with in High School but only talked to three times was someone I cared for allowing me to unlock some Super Saiyan like powers when I see him decapitated in front of me!
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The show tried to brush off Ruby\\\'s AngstWhatAngst to Penny and Pyrrha\\\'s deaths in Volume 5 by claiming she barely knew them, yet the entire reasoning behind her powers is that she has to think of someone she cares for, so for her to have cared for Penny and Pyrrha that much, why didn\\\'t she angst?! And if she didn\\\'t angst, why did they fall under the umbrella of \\\'\\\'cared for\\\'\\\'! The logic the show tries to provide makes no goddamn sense!
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But lets stay on track shall we. According to the CRWBY, the metatextual reasoning behind Pyrrha\\\'s conception was that she was intended to be the SacrificialLion.
* The SacrificialLion, by definition, is \\\"a sympathetic character who [[FriendlyTarget is slated to die]] so that the audience knows that [[KnightOfCerebus the villain is playing for keeps]] or that [[MatterOfLifeAndDeath the situation really is as dangerous and desperate as it seems]]. The death is ultimately unnecessary in the large scheme of things, but it does provide a shocking twist to the proceedings.\\\"
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But there are two problems with that in regards to Pyrrha.
* First off is that for her to be the SacrificalLion, her death would have to be the sign shit got real. But it isn\\\'t. \\\'\\\'Penny\\\'s\\\'\\\' death was that sign, and you can\\\'t say \\\"But she\\\'s back so she didn\\\'t really die\\\" since by Pietro\\\'s own phrasing, she did indeed \\\'\\\'\\\'die\\\'\\\'\\\'. Watch any reaction, read any review, ask any troper, and they\\\'ll tell you that Penny\\\'s death is the moment the show got DarkerAndEdgier. Now, you can argue that Penny\\\'s death had a reason behind it to further Cinder\\\'s plans, so that should disqualify her from being it based on the second point, but it doesn\\\'t change the fact that the intended purpose behind the death of the SacrificialLion is to show the story is getting darker. By time Pyrrha\\\'s death occured, that was already established. So her being killed to highlight that was meaningless.
* By very nature of the trope, the SacrificialLion has to have an \\\'\\\'unnecessary\\\'\\\' death. Pyrrha\\\'s death however \\\'\\\'was\\\'\\\' necessary. Not only did it kick start Jaune\\\'s true development, it was her death that got team RNJR into investigating Cinder, meaning for all intents and purposes, Pyrrah\\\'s death should be a plot point. But again, per the writing of the trope: \\\"If their death is directly vital to the story (such as a political assassination), then it ceases to be a \\\"sacrificial\\\" character and becomes plot-relevant.\\\" So Pyrrha can\\\'t be the SacrificialLion if her death was a PlotPoint.
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Next of course we have the SenselessSacrifice.
According to the definition of the trope:
* \\\"A Senseless Sacrifice is ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin. It\\\'s a {{downer| ending}} counterpart to a HeroicSacrifice, because rather than kill the bad guy, fulfill the prophecy, or allow the other survivors to escape alive... it \\\'\\\'doesn\\\'t.\\\'\\\' The BigBad survived the SelfDestructiveCharge, the prophecy actually meant TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt would \\\'\\\'start\\\'\\\' with a selfless sacrifice, and the boat the survivors escaped on \\\'\\\'has no fuel\\\'\\\'.
* This usually happens to anyone who isn\\\'t TheHero or the MessianicArchetype while attempting a HeroicSacrifice, especially before the SeasonFinale, because \\\'only the hero can save the day\\\'. It may serve as fuel for HeroicResolve and/or an UnstoppableRage later, [[FriendlyTarget not that it helps the dead martyr]]. Typically, the RedShirtArmy charging like boars will have this happen to them, with the protagonists lamenting \\\"WhatASenselessWasteOfHumanLife\\\".
* For this trope to be subverted does not require that it have been a HeroicSacrifice. What needs to happen is that the previously \\\"senseless\\\" sacrifice was actually either a BatmanGambit on the martyr\\\'s part to create an exploitable weakness for the hero to use later, or doing so by sheer [[SpannerInTheWorks dumb luck]].\\\"
So first, we need to examine Pyrrha\\\'s so called \\\"HeroicSacrifice\\\".
* According to the definition of the trope: \\\"A character saves another/others from harm and is killed, crippled, or maimed as a result.\\\"
** So right away she is disqualified from the HeroicSacrifice trope. Why? \\\'\\\'Because her death did jack shit\\\'\\\'. She didn\\\'t save anyone, she didn\\\'t stop Cinder\\\'s efforts, nor did she really help in the long run. Completely ignoring Ruby awakening her SEW, Pyrrha\\\'s attempt to go up there and stop Cinder failed the moment the CCT was destroyed. Ozpin was dead. Beacon was being evacuated. Her entire reason for going up there was pointless because \\\'\\\'Cinder had already won\\\'\\\'.
* Now look back at the definition of SenselessSacrifice. The definition says the sacrifice has to ultimately accomplish nothing, and that even if the attempt instilled feelings into other characters, the thing that matters is that it was a \\\'\\\'failed\\\'\\\' HeroicSacrifice. As far as Pyrrha knew, she was the only one left. She had no idea anyone would come. So she faced off against Cinder thinking she could make a difference, and failed. Her HeroicSacrifice failed. It was a SenselessSacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I\\\'m using actual trope definitions to build my argument, but if you write this off as complaining again, I\\\'ll be taking this to the AskTheTropers to see if they think it applies. I figured I\\\'d just say this to you first to see if you\\\'ll see reason and actually understand my argument, but if that isn\\\'t the case, I\\\'ll be doing so.

The only time it is ever treated as a HeroicSacrifice and the entire spiel about her going off cause \\\"That\\\'s what Huntsmen do\\\" came in Volume 6 with the Red Haired Woman, and the scene reads like an attempted AuthorsSavingThrow. Except much like with their attempt to make Ruby come across as a better protagonist, said throw \\\'\\\'failed\\\'\\\'. People still questioned the logic and pointed out that if it was supposed to be an Aesop, it was a BrokenAesop that invoked numerous bouts of FridgeLogic.
* Just to list an example, even if pray tell she still thought along those lines, why didn\\\'t she call Glynda before doing her move? She sent Jaune away an emotional mess, and you expect her to trust \\\'\\\'him\\\'\\\', the dude who wears his heart on his sleeve and lets his emotions control him, to be rational and call her after that? You can\\\'t even argue there wasn\\\'t time to waste since a call would take less than a minute.
\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
So just as people point out that narratively Ruby doesn\\\'t come across as better like the AuthorsSavingThrow intended, it should be allowed to say that the narrative reason they gave for Pyrrha\\\'s death doesn\\\'t work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it\\\'s complainey to point out FridgeLogic now huh? I\\\'m not complaining cause I\\\'m upset Ruby didn\\\'t wake up her powers to Penny\\\'s death, I questioning how the hell does \\\'\\\'any\\\'\\\' of it make sense with what the show established? According to Maria, to trigger the eyes, the user has to focus on the people they cared for, the people they loved and cherished. But by the logic of the show, Penny and Pyrrha were two people Ruby \\\'\\\'barely\\\'\\\' knew and was able to shrug off the deaths of in Volume 5, so they shouldn\\\'t fall under the umbrella of \\\"cared for\\\" or \\\"loved\\\".
\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
That\\\'s like me saying the guy I had a few classes with in High School but only talked to three times was someone I cared for allowing me to unlock some Super Saiyan like powers when I see him decapitated in front of me!
\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
The show tried to brush off Ruby\\\'s AngstWhatAngst to Penny and Pyrrha\\\'s deaths in Volume 5 by claiming she barely knew them, yet the entire reasoning behind her powers is that she has to think of someone she cares for, so for her to have cared for Penny and Pyrrha that much, why didn\\\'t she angst?! And if she didn\\\'t angst, why did they fall under the umbrella of \\\'\\\'cared for\\\'\\\'! The logic the show tries to provide makes no goddamn sense!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But lets stay on track shall we. According to the CRWBY, the metatextual reasoning behind Pyrrha\\\'s conception was that she was intended to be the SacrificialLion.
* The SacrificialLion, by definition, is \\\"a sympathetic character who [[FriendlyTarget is slated to die]] so that the audience knows that [[KnightOfCerebus the villain is playing for keeps]] or that [[MatterOfLifeAndDeath the situation really is as dangerous and desperate as it seems]]. The death is ultimately unnecessary in the large scheme of things, but it does provide a shocking twist to the proceedings.\\\"
\\\\\\\\
But there are two problems with that in regards to Pyrrha.
* First off is that for her to be the SacrificalLion, her death would have to be the sign shit got real. But it isn\\\'t. \\\'\\\'Penny\\\'s\\\'\\\' death was that sign, and you can\\\'t say \\\"But she\\\'s back so she didn\\\'t really die\\\" since by Pietro\\\'s own phrasing, she did indeed \\\'\\\'\\\'die\\\'\\\'\\\'. Watch any reaction, read any review, ask any troper, and they\\\'ll tell you that Penny\\\'s death is the moment the show got DarkerAndEdgier. Now, you can argue that Penny\\\'s death had a reason behind it to further Cinder\\\'s plans, so that should disqualify her from being it based on the second point, but it doesn\\\'t change the fact that the intended purpose behind the death of the SacrificialLion is to show the story is getting darker. By time Pyrrha\\\'s death occured, that was already established. So her being killed to highlight that was meaningless.
* By very nature of the trope, the SacrificialLion has to have an \\\'\\\'unnecessary\\\'\\\' death. Pyrrha\\\'s death however \\\'\\\'was\\\'\\\' necessary. Not only did it kick start Jaune\\\'s true development, it was her death that got team RNJR into investigating Cinder, meaning for all intents and purposes, Pyrrah\\\'s death should be a plot point. But again, per the writing of the trope: \\\"If their death is directly vital to the story (such as a political assassination), then it ceases to be a \\\"sacrificial\\\" character and becomes plot-relevant.\\\" So Pyrrha can\\\'t be the SacrificialLion if her death was a PlotPoint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next of course we have the SenselessSacrifice.
According to the definition of the trope:
* \\\"A Senseless Sacrifice is ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin. It\\\'s a {{downer| ending}} counterpart to a HeroicSacrifice, because rather than kill the bad guy, fulfill the prophecy, or allow the other survivors to escape alive... it \\\'\\\'doesn\\\'t.\\\'\\\' The BigBad survived the SelfDestructiveCharge, the prophecy actually meant TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt would \\\'\\\'start\\\'\\\' with a selfless sacrifice, and the boat the survivors escaped on \\\'\\\'has no fuel\\\'\\\'.

This usually happens to anyone who isn\\\'t TheHero or the MessianicArchetype while attempting a HeroicSacrifice, especially before the SeasonFinale, because \\\'only the hero can save the day\\\'. It may serve as fuel for HeroicResolve and/or an UnstoppableRage later, [[FriendlyTarget not that it helps the dead martyr]]. Typically, the RedShirtArmy charging like boars will have this happen to them, with the protagonists lamenting \\\"WhatASenselessWasteOfHumanLife\\\".

For this trope to be subverted does not require that it have been a HeroicSacrifice. What needs to happen is that the previously \\\"senseless\\\" sacrifice was actually either a BatmanGambit on the martyr\\\'s part to create an exploitable weakness for the hero to use later, or doing so by sheer [[SpannerInTheWorks dumb luck]].\\\"
So first, we need to examine Pyrrha\\\'s so called \\\"HeroicSacrifice\\\".
* According to the definition of the trope: \\\"A character saves another/others from harm and is killed, crippled, or maimed as a result.\\\"
** So right away she is disqualified from the HeroicSacrifice trope. Why? \\\'\\\'Because her death did jack shit\\\'\\\'. She didn\\\'t save anyone, she didn\\\'t stop Cinder\\\'s efforts, nor did she really help in the long run. Completely ignoring Ruby awakening her SEW, Pyrrha\\\'s attempt to go up there and stop Cinder failed the moment the CCT was destroyed. Ozpin was dead. Beacon was being evacuated. Her entire reason for going up there was pointless because \\\'\\\'Cinder had already won\\\'\\\'.
* Now look back at the definition of SenselessSacrifice. The definition says the sacrifice has to ultimately accomplish nothing, and that even if the attempt instilled feelings into other characters, the thing that matters is that it was a \\\'\\\'failed\\\'\\\' HeroicSacrifice. As far as Pyrrha knew, she was the only one left. She had no idea anyone would come. So she faced off against Cinder thinking she could make a difference, and failed. Her HeroicSacrifice failed. It was a SenselessSacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I\\\'m using actual trope definitions to build my argument, but if you write this off as complaining again, I\\\'ll be taking this to the AskTheTropers to see if they think it applies. I figured I\\\'d just say this to you first to see if you\\\'ll see reason and actually understand my argument, but if that isn\\\'t the case, I\\\'ll be doing so.

\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
The only time it is ever treated as a HeroicSacrifice and the entire spiel about her going off cause \\\"That\\\'s what Huntsmen do\\\" came in Volume 6 with the Red Haired Woman, and the scene reads like an attempted AuthorsSavingThrow. Except much like with their attempt to make Ruby come across as a better protagonist, said throw \\\'\\\'failed\\\'\\\'. People still questioned the logic and pointed out that if it was supposed to be an Aesop, it was a BrokenAesop that invoked numerous bouts of FridgeLogic.
* Just to list an example, even if pray tell she still thought along those lines, why didn\\\'t she call Glynda before doing her move? She sent Jaune away an emotional mess, and you expect her to trust \\\'\\\'him\\\'\\\', the dude who wears his heart on his sleeve and lets his emotions control him, to be rational and call her after that? You can\\\'t even argue there wasn\\\'t time to waste since a call would take less than a minute.
\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
So just as people point out that narratively Ruby doesn\\\'t come across as better like the AuthorsSavingThrow intended, it should be allowed to say that the narrative reason they gave for Pyrrha\\\'s death doesn\\\'t work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it\\\'s complainey to point out FridgeLogic now huh? I\\\'m not complaining cause I\\\'m upset Ruby didn\\\'t wake up her powers to Penny\\\'s death, I questioning how the hell does \\\'\\\'any\\\'\\\' of it make sense with what the show established? According to Maria, to trigger the eyes, the user has to focus on the people they cared for, the people they loved and cherished. But by the logic of the show, Penny and Pyrrha were two people Ruby \\\'\\\'barely\\\'\\\' knew and was able to shrug off the deaths of in Volume 5, so they shouldn\\\'t fall under the umbrella of \\\"cared for\\\" or \\\"loved\\\".
\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
That\\\'s like me saying the guy I had a few classes with in High School but only talked to three times was someone I cared for allowing me to unlock some Super Saiyan like powers when I see him decapitated in front of me!
\\\\\\\\
\\\\\\\\
The show tried to brush off Ruby\\\'s AngstWhatAngst to Penny and Pyrrha\\\'s deaths in Volume 5 by claiming she barely knew them, yet the entire reasoning behind her powers is that she has to think of someone she cares for, so for her to have cared for Penny and Pyrrha that much, why didn\\\'t she angst?! And if she didn\\\'t angst, why did they fall under the umbrella of \\\'\\\'cared for\\\'\\\'! The logic the show tries to provide makes no goddamn sense!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But lets stay on track shall we. According to the CRWBY, the metatextual reasoning behind Pyrrha\\\'s conception was that she was intended to be the SacrificialLion.
* The SacrificialLion, by definition, is \\\"a sympathetic character who [[FriendlyTarget is slated to die]] so that the audience knows that [[KnightOfCerebus the villain is playing for keeps]] or that [[MatterOfLifeAndDeath the situation really is as dangerous and desperate as it seems]]. The death is ultimately unnecessary in the large scheme of things, but it does provide a shocking twist to the proceedings.\\\"
\\\\\\\\
But there are two problems with that in regards to Pyrrha.
* First off is that for her to be the SacrificalLion, her death would have to be the sign shit got real. But it isn\\\'t. \\\'\\\'Penny\\\'s\\\'\\\' death was that sign, and you can\\\'t say \\\"But she\\\'s back so she didn\\\'t really die\\\" since by Pietro\\\'s own phrasing, she did indeed \\\'\\\'\\\'die\\\'\\\'\\\'. Watch any reaction, read any review, ask any troper, and they\\\'ll tell you that Penny\\\'s death is the moment the show got DarkerAndEdgier. Now, you can argue that Penny\\\'s death had a reason behind it to further Cinder\\\'s plans, so that should disqualify her from being it based on the second point, but it doesn\\\'t change the fact that the intended purpose behind the death of the SacrificialLion is to show the story is getting darker. By time Pyrrha\\\'s death occured, that was already established. So her being killed to highlight that was meaningless.
* By very nature of the trope, the SacrificialLion has to have an \\\'\\\'unnecessary\\\'\\\' death. Pyrrha\\\'s death however \\\'\\\'was\\\'\\\' necessary. Not only did it kick start Jaune\\\'s true development, it was her death that got team RNJR into investigating Cinder, meaning for all intents and purposes, Pyrrah\\\'s death should be a plot point. But again, per the writing of the trope: \\\"If their death is directly vital to the story (such as a political assassination), then it ceases to be a \\\"sacrificial\\\" character and becomes plot-relevant.\\\" So Pyrrha can\\\'t be the SacrificialLion if her death was a PlotPoint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next of course we have the SenselessSacrifice.
According to the definition of the trope:
* \\\"A Senseless Sacrifice is ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin. It\\\'s a {{downer| ending}} counterpart to a HeroicSacrifice, because rather than kill the bad guy, fulfill the prophecy, or allow the other survivors to escape alive... it \\\'\\\'doesn\\\'t.\\\'\\\' The BigBad survived the SelfDestructiveCharge, the prophecy actually meant TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt would \\\'\\\'start\\\'\\\' with a selfless sacrifice, and the boat the survivors escaped on \\\'\\\'has no fuel\\\'\\\'.