In before 5.56mm fanboys.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Bah, no new real info. We already knew they were going for the 6.8mm and some new fire arms.
Who watches the watchmen?
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
...So some bright egg reinvented the G-11 and made it fire saboted flechette ammo. The diagrams are nice and the dart design looks interesting.
Who watches the watchmen?
Yeah. It looks like it would have the same problems as H und K's wunderwaffe - how the fresh hell are you meant to strip that thing down in the field at dark o'clock in the morning when you get a failure to feed/lock-ups?
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
The creator of the piece also clearly doesn't know what they are talking in terms of casing. Plastic works fine we got to see it how well it worked during the ACR program and again with the LSAT. Hell, it looks like one of the more exotic entries for the ACR program. Though I think they may be onto something with their dart design.
Who watches the watchmen?
I'm kind of dubious about flechette rounds fired from rifle-class firearms. It's been tried before, on numerous occasions, particularly under Project SALVO and the Advanced Combat Rifle program, and it's never really worked well enough to get a rifle into massed service adoption.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
They had good velocity and accuracy but almost all of them were a little light. A dart design like the one depicted would be heavier by comparison.
Who watches the watchmen?
rollin' on dubs
Army vs. Marines: Which Service Had the Better Bullet?
Further reports of M855 underperforming lead the U.S. military on a hunt for a new cartridge that would be more effective. Surprisingly, the Army and Marines diverged in their approach, and for nearly half a decade both services fielded different cartridges as standard issue to their troops until Congress forced the Marines to use the Army round.
But which round is better? Have other NATO countries kept up with these innovations and developed “third-generation” 5.56 rounds of their own? Why did the Marines resist the change for so long?
This company is building ‘barrier-penetrating' 5.56mm rounds for the Marines
LAS VEGAS — The Marine Corps recently selected a Vista Outdoor company to build a barrier penetrating 5.56mm round that’s especially useful for potential urban combat.
The contract with Federal Cartridge Company, a Vista subsidiary, puts more than $41 million behind the effort, which is expected to run into 2023.
This comes after Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley told Congress last year that the body armor penetration in the existing 5.56mm stocks was lacking, and he worried about overmatch with potential adversaries such as Russia and China in the small arms fight.
And I've heard from Vietnam vets that even M193 the "better" 5.56mm until M855A1 would from time to time require a half a mag or more of full auto M16 dumped into a guy to drop him.
5.56 has always had reputation issues with stopping power. The fortunate thing about that is they have proven to be a much more reliable bullet than HK's 4.6x30mm Pretty Damn Weak (PDW) cartridge used by the MP 7.
Edited by MajorTom on Jan 29th 2019 at 9:31:18 AM
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Yeah calling bullshit on the whole lot about ammo. Nearly every time examination after the fact shows the troopers were not as good a shot as they thought or thought all bullets were magic shooting through cover and heavy brush. We have accounts of people eating magazines worth of ammo from a wide variety of ammo and keep on going. You read enough Medal of Honor citations and you get the gist that caliber based stopping power is effectively a myth until you get into weapons of notable power like heavy machine guns. I will say this yet again. The only guaranteed drop is when you damage or destroy enough of the central nervous system. That is the only way it happens with anything approaching reliability.
The second article is equally garbage. Casual examination points to giant glaring holes in the thought process such as grades of protection and even M-855 can defeat the most common lower tier armor. Class three soft armor can be ate up and spat out by M-855A1 and Black Tip AR ammo no issue. Hard inserts are the big deal and we know for a fact there is no solution they can find to anyone using ceramic inserts without a notable increase in the cartridge power. Steel inserts have disappointing performance overall and can be defeated by FMJ within about 150-200 meters out of a long barrel AR platform.
Edited by TuefelHundenIV on Jan 29th 2019 at 12:03:49 PM
Who watches the watchmen?
rollin' on dubs
Wanted to post those as the "5.56mm will ice pick" has been the cry of the mall ninja and those who want to "return" to the 7.62mm.
While the US Army may be right to go with 6.8mm due to most armor being tested against 5.56mm.
Now the idea of a windshield or drywall reducing the stopping power of a 5.56mm round has some logic to it. But most of the examples are: railroad ties, cinder block, "plants in the jungle" or some other magic substance that stops 5.56mm cold and somehow lets 7.62mm walk on by.
The idea of a "barrier blind" round appeals, but I'm skeptical that the 5.56mm is just the "Poodle shooter".
All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
The issue with Barrier Blind is it is almost as mythical as "knock down power". Basic physics does it in. Your projectile strikes something even a twig, it gets partially deflected and is no longer heading at a dead-on angle. Even the mighty .30-06 and Russian 7.62mm R can be deflected by brush. Hitting an already angled surface is going to cause deflection to various degrees such as vehicles windshields. You basically need an increasingly heavy and fast projectile to reduce deflection. I recall reading a discussion on Police sniping and their motto is there is no such thing as a precise glass shot if the glass is still there no matter what round you use. Even the .50 BMG can gain deflection from the glass. Not as much as lighter rounds but it is also a lot heavier and has massive over penetration. Most of the other barriers tend to not only deflect to a degree but regularly cause rounds to break up or begin to do so.
The thinking on the body armor if they are thinking like that is frankly idiotic. Unless they are going to turn the 6.8mm into a wunderwaffen somehow. What baffles me is the US government sets the body armor standards.IIIA the most common body armor sans inserts can be defeated by even old green tip ammo. Various inserts either push it into Class III or Class IV. The thing that really kills me is the likely 6.8mm round they are looking at has nearly the same foot lbs of force as 5.56mm NATO rounds. The advantage is the 6.8mm will deliver the same amount of force at longer ranges and supposedly with more accuracy. Class three and above armors insert or otherwise will have no issue stopping 6.8mm. It basically boils down to how they build the bullets.
It sounds like they have been getting advice from Soldier of Fortune readers and the Mall Ninja club.
Edited by TuefelHundenIV on Jan 29th 2019 at 12:58:07 PM
Who watches the watchmen?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The MP 7’s supposed stopping power issues have always been greatly overblown. Blame that one on video games always making it a low damage/high ROF weapon.
In practice it’s pretty much the same as a 9mm but with the added AP capabilities.
Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 29th 2019 at 10:59:33 AM
They should have sent a poet.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
The SEALS dropped the things because they said it's effects against unarmored targets were abysmal and in tests it consistently performed way worse than FN's 5.7mm round.
Oh really when?
The SEALs still use their MP7s, they just haven’t been photographing with them. They don’t have P90s either.
The supposed deficiencies with the round are mostly a product of pop culture and misunderstanding exactly what stopping power is. It’s not purely a matter of energy applied to target. In terms of stopping power like I said the 4.6 HK is broadly similar to 9mm, though it flies flatter and is obviously much more effective against targets wearing armor. Obviously that makes it a fairly specialized round, but you can see why it would be appealing for a certain kind of mission.
AFAIK the SEALs have had a good experience with the MP7, the main issue is how expensive it is.
Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 30th 2019 at 6:00:51 AM
They should have sent a poet.
^ 4.6x30 is deficient compared to 5.7x28 in every way. This is demonstrable in ballistics gel. Against both armored and unarmored targets.
Otherwise the UCP would still be kicking around and the FN Five-Seven would not.
I wouldn’t say that’s fully accurate. The 4.6mm and 5.7mm have very, very similar profiles, the main difference being that 4.6mm does better against armor and the 5.7mm retains more energy over range. The reasons for a lack of widespread adoption really are not that simple at all though, that’s absurdly reductive. I think ultimately the 4.6mm was simply too much of a departure from what NATO was looking for since the competitions were pretty explicitly geared towards the 5.7mm. The 5.7mm has an established supply chain as well, and FN closed out the political end of things much quicker than HK could as well as marketed civilian models. 4.6mm weapons also tend to run much more aggressively than 5.7mm ones, the 5.7mm is a more “efficient” round. From a broad adoption perspective that’s very valuable, it doesn’t matter so much for a small unit.
I’ll also add that when you factor in bullets the edge goes to the 4.6mm. The 4.6mm UC is consistently better than the 5.7mm SS 190.
Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 30th 2019 at 7:33:59 AM
They should have sent a poet.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
The only reason why the 5.7mm wasn't adopted to replace the 9mm for NATO is because H&K pitched a fit to the German government when it was discovered that the 4.6mm round was terrible and they were going to get passed over.
Oh really when?
Again, I’ll emphasize that the 4.6mm and 5.7mm have extremely similar characteristics. The 4.6mm round’s reputation is heavily exaggerated.
FN was favored in the competition and had a better backend, more efficient platform, and smoother negotiations. The 5.7mm was also less of a departure from “conventional” rounds.
Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 30th 2019 at 8:43:23 AM
They should have sent a poet.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
And also proved better against both body armor and soft targets in NATO's tests and from user reports.
Like the 4.6mm is worse in every way compared to the 5.7mm.
It's not that much of a memetic dumpster fire and it's certainly a respectable upgrade over the 9mm in it's own right but the above statement is still true.
Edited by LeGarcon on Jan 30th 2019 at 11:59:00 AM
Oh really when?
^^ Garcon's right. They had testing showing 5.7mm was better at everything and the ONLY reason it never went anywhere is HK went full toddler temper tantrum to the German government.
Hell, HK crying like babies is the only reason they're even allowed in the G36 replacement trials. (That and ITAR idiocy greatly reducing the playing field...)
Edited by MajorTom on Jan 30th 2019 at 8:54:32 AM
That’s simply not correct, guys.
The reason the 5.7mm won the shootoff is because it’s a more efficient and useful round for mass adoption, not because it’s a better round. The ballistic properties are super similar, but the 5.7mm can be worked into existing supply chains more easily and runs more efficiently. And again, FN had a much better backend and offer.
Compare video from the actual tests to see just how similar they are: [1] [2] and here’s the charts for velocity and energy [3]
◊ [4]
◊
The impression of the 4.6mm as totally inferior comes almost entirely from FPS games.
Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 30th 2019 at 9:23:55 AM
They should have sent a poet.
If that were the case, why is the Army's Sub-Compact Weapon boondoggle program explicitly avoiding MP 7 and the 4.6mm cartridge? Conceptually the MP 7 A 2 meets all the requirements outside of caliber. (Why Big Army is idiotically sticking to 9mm subguns when the whole world otherwise is moving away from such calibers is an exercise in stupidity but still...)
But instead of cribbing off MP 7 purchases by SOCOM to avoid trials and competitions, they're starting something else.
Meanwhile last I've heard, everyone in SOCOM even the SEAL's have abandoned the MP 7 outright as opposed to using suppressed M4's/CQBR's.
Army Moves Forward With Next-Gen Squad Rifle Program (Updated)
Exactly how soon soldiers should expect to use their new Next-Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW) in combat, with variants that would replace both the M4 carbine and the M249 squad automatic weapon, however, is still to be determined.
The new weapon would fire a 6.8 caliber round, which both the service and representatives from industry who are vying for the contract to build it are embracing. The round, they say, would provide the right balance of lethality required in both close- and long-range fights. Proponents say it is both lighter and deadlier than the 5.56 mm NATO round, the ammunition it would replace.
“Ninety percent of our casualties are coming from 4 per-cent of our force,” said Daryl Easlick, small arms deputy at the lethality branch of the maneuver capabilities and integration directorate, at Fort Benning, Georgia. “This means those close-combat [military occupational specialties] that close with and destroy the enemy are the most likely to be injured. Those are the ones we’re concentrating on the most when looking at these modernization efforts.”
But while the Army team that is working on the new weapon’s development is optimistic that they are on the right track, they fully understand that more testing will be necessary before the project emerges from its present prototype stage.