Something is now bothering me about Half-Blood Prince. We find out in Deathly Hallows that Dumbledore knew of Draco's mission to kill him all along, and wanted to save his soul (and his life no doubt) which is totally in character for Dumbledore. And Draco, for all his faults, is a student in his care, so definitely deserving of saving... but not at the expense of other students. Yet Dumbledore simply wants to carry out his plan to have Snape kill him and fool Voldemort into thinking that Snape is master of the Elder Wand (which didn't work and nearly torpedoed the entire plan), and Ron and Katie were expendable in this. What's more, Dumbledore knew exactly what was happening and was incredibly blase about it. Even if you can forgive him for Katie Bell, that should have been a wake-up call but he still does nothing and leaves Draco to nearly kill Ron, plus put Madame Rosemerta under the Imperius Curse and try to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry.
If I was in Dumbledore's position, I would not let any of Draco's actions slide. I would've given an immense verbal reprimand to Snape for not controlling Draco, and flatout expelled Draco and had him arrested and thrown in Azkaban (or at the very least, get his wand snapped), because I'd see my students' safety as more important than my planned assisted suicide.
...then again, Dumbledore had shown in prior books that unless hideously hemmed-in by circumstances, he had no problems risking the students' lives if it furthered his plans. Just in the first book alone, he knew someone dangerous was trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone, so decided to store it in a school full of children that could end up as hostages and/or collateral damage. And it's guarded by a deadly creature behind nothing more than a locked door that a first year can open, complete with an announcement at start of term that points inquisitive students straight to it. And when there was a troll in the dungeon, he sent the kids out of the Great Hall where they could all be defended by the staff and to their common rooms, one of which (Slytherin's) is in the dungeons. And he left a mirror that he himself admitted is dangerous out in the open of an unused classroom without even bothering with a locked door.
This is arguably a massive flaw of Dumbledore's: he's long-sighted to a fault. He is so obsessed with the Second Wizarding War that he's forgotten his primary job. He's the headmaster of Hogwarts, and his most basic role is to keep the students safe. He tells Harry straight that he overlooks the fact that nameless and faceless people die and are slaughtered in order to achieve "The Greater Good" in his eyes. This actually mirrors Voldemort a little, to whom the majority of his murder victims are "nameless and faceless"note : he doesn't remember them or care providing he is achieving what he wants.
Dumbledore's "Greater Good, secrets and lies" principles never really changed, the only difference between this and his rebellion as a teenager is that he is no longer acting this philosophy for personal power but genuinely for the good of the world. It still comes to the same thing: people are expendable in search of your goals. He's not deliberately cruel but he works to his own agenda, always.
Edited by dmcreif on Dec 15th 2020 at 11:48:01 AM
The cold never bothered me anyway
Oh, bother.
You forgot one key factor. Shape made an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco with the “kill Dumbledore” plan.
Dumbledore could not have stopped Draco sooner without killing Snape.
Disgusted, but not surprised
King of Anime
Not only that but as far as we know Dumbledore doesn't know how Draco intends to kill him. And with Draco not telling Snape anything he has no way of knowing until after the fact. And on top of all of that he has no proof that Draco is the instigator aside from Snape telling him the Voldemort is using Draco as an assassin. Which he can't use as evidence without outing Snape as a spy which, while it would stop Draco, would also almost certainly get Snape killed if he ever left the castle (Which Snape almost certainly had to do to attend Order meetings.). Which not only loses Snape as a spy but it means that when Voldemort takes over the ministry and the school (Because there's nothing to prevent that from happening even if Dumbledore does live since those events aren't necessarily intertwined.) that Hogwarts would probably be an even worse place for students than it was in canon.
Dumbledore's flawed but until Draco tries to kill him directly he has no way to put an end to Draco's schemes. Draco isn't telling Snape anything and barring a massive invasion of privacy on both their parts, which would be bad for both Snape and Dumbledore, Dumbledore has no way of getting rid of him either.
Redmess
Yeah, and considering the corruption of the government and Malfoy's political power, there really was nothing Dumbledore could have done legally. It would just have hastened the rise of Voldemort, if anything.
Optimism is a duty.
Oh, bother.
The political power isn't a factor in Book 6. The events of Book 5 exposed Lucius Malfoy and got him sent to Azkaban. His failure is precisely why Tom forced Draco to go on the mission to assassinate Dumbledore - Tom wanted Draco to be caught and possibly killed by Dumbledore as a means of punishing Lucius.
Tom never really expected Draco to be able to pull it off.
This is another reason Dumbledore is sympathetic to Draco. He's fully aware that Draco is a scared and desperate kid who is just trying to keep his family safe.
Edited by M84 on Dec 16th 2020 at 10:43:22 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Redmess
Oh yeah, you're right. Still, I don't think Dumbledore had much to expect from the legal system at that point.
Optimism is a duty.
Like everything Dumbledore does, well intentioned but extremely flawed.
Oh, bother.
A surprisingly good plan though considering he came up with it on the fly in response to finding out he was going to die in less than a year.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Mistakes Were Made
Also, Snape does scold Draco for his wilder and more desperate moves that year it just doesn't take. Snape can't outright shut Draco down without breaking the Vow, but he does try to guide him away from doing more risky moves.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
King of Anime
And that's just logically. I'd have to check it myself but according to one of the wikis Dumbledore didn't expel Draco in order to protect him from Voldemort. Now obviously it can be argued that there were other ways to protect Draco even after expelling him but combined with previous explanations it really wasn't an option.
The only ways to get rid of Draco are bad for either Dumbledore and Snape (Mindreading Draco against his will and show their memories of doing so as proof for why they need to get rid of him, assuming that's even possible. This would almost certainly end with both of them being fired, if not outright arrested, and leaving the castle even more vulnerable to the Death Eaters.) or Snape and Hogwarts (Outing Snape as a spy would almost certainly lead to his death and leave his position to be filled by someone worse once Voldemort takes over the ministry and forces every European witch and wizard to attend Hogwarts.). Trying to convince Draco off amounted to nothing so the best course of action was the one Dumbledore took: waiting for Draco to try and off him directly.
Mistakes Were Made
I said nothing about expulsion, especially since that could potentially endanger Draco. As much as I dislike him I'm certain Dumbledore (and Snape) would be against any action that leads to that.
What I was getting at was some of I Know You Know I Know. Dumbledore doesn't need to say anything that incriminates Snape as a spy, especially since Harry already knew Draco had a mission. As is (unless I'm forgetting something), Dumbledore doesn't speak to Draco until after the near misses and him succeeding in bringing the Death Eaters into the school. Talking to him earlier could he offered Draco out he did in the tower or attempted to nudge him towards Snape for "assistance". Also Draco doing things that could end up others dead may very well warrant things like Veritaserum or other means of extracting information.
‘My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’
Oh, bother.
Note that Snape did try this. It didn't work because Draco was trained in Occlumency by Bellatrix and had become a master of it. According to Rowling, this is because Draco's very good at compartmentalizing and shutting down parts of himself. This contrasts him with Harry, who is too emotional and hotheaded to master Occlumency (though it didn't help that his lessons were during a time of emotional turmoil and his teacher was Snape).
Edited by M84 on Dec 18th 2020 at 4:40:34 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Really, having Snape teach Harry occlumency was one of the most blatantly stupid decisions Dumbledore ever made during the course of the plot.
Like, not only was that a fiasco, it was a fiasco in a completely predictable way. Wasn't there anyone else available to repeatedly force themselves into that kid's mind besides the sulking manchild who unreasonably hates him for reasons he can't control?
What, was Mundungus Fletcher busy?
Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 17th 2020 at 1:11:44 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Oh, bother.
Snape probably was the best and maybe only Occlumens available. Remember, this is a guy who can use it to successfully keep secrets from Tom Riddle, a master Legilimens. And Occlumency itself is apparently a very rare and difficult ability to master, which is probably why it's not part of the regular curriculum at Hogwarts.
Edited by M84 on Dec 17th 2020 at 5:13:14 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
And yet he's too careless to keep his secrets from a teenager, and too self-centered to keep his composure in response to the obvious mistake on said teenager's part.
Given Dumbledore's reasons for not doing it himself, the occlumency debacle is a picture perfect example of meeting your misfortune on the road you take to avoid it. In fear of causing a failure simply through his very presence, he set Harry on a path that was always doomed to fail anyway - and ended up failing due to the same vulnerabilities Dumbledore was hoping not to trigger.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 17th 2020 at 1:14:16 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Oh, bother.
Dumbledore probably figured that Snape would at least put his petty grudges on hold to ensure Harry would have a vital skill he'd need to protect himself since he did swear to protect Harry's life after all.
Obviously that was a mistake, one of many Dumbledore makes in Book 5. As I am fond of pointing out, Book 5's plot can be summed up as "EVERYONE is a fucking idiot".
Edited by M84 on Dec 17th 2020 at 5:14:49 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Which also illustrates an issue with the passage of time in the books. There's a period of quite a while between the point where Occlumency fails and everything goes to shit where Dumbledore probably should have realized no actual lessons were taking place and the whole situation had fallen apart.
That's a bit more doylist, on Rowling's love of lots of little timeskips moreso than the characters, but it does paint Dumbledore as so afraid of making things worse that he let a situation where nothing was happening at all fester until it exploded.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 17th 2020 at 1:16:08 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Oh, bother.
Dumbledore by his own admission grew to care more about Harry's peace of mind than about actually making sure Harry was prepared to deal with Tom.
The Occlumency lessons also failed to take due to Harry thinking it'd be a good idea to try and exploit the connection with Tom to figure out what Tom was planning. "Everyone is a fucking idiot", remember.
Edited by M84 on Dec 17th 2020 at 5:19:16 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Mistakes Were Made
Which was facilitated by the lessons being a failure and information being withheld from Harry.
‘My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’
Oh, bother.
All the idiocy kind of enables the rest, culminating in the complete clusterfuck at the climax of Book 5 where pretty much everyone loses.
Dumbledore at least is able to claim mea culpa and admits that a whole lot of shit could have been avoided if he had just told Harry about the prophecy earlier.
Edited by M84 on Dec 17th 2020 at 11:22:56 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Mistakes Were Made
Personally felt that while Sirius dying was bad the Order didn't really lose.
‘My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’
Oh, bother.
Sure didn't feel like a victory for them though.
Disgusted, but not surprised
The One with Knowledge of Things
I mean, Death Eaters didn't get the prophecy, which was the goal of Voldemort in OotP, so that could be considered victory.
Edited by jouXIII on Dec 17th 2020 at 5:41:43 PM
I assure you, I'm a completely trustworthy person.
But his Charisma has bad negative growth since he seems to cause several of his people to betray or leave him. Or has a demerit on only attracting rats.
Wake me up at your own risk.