Babylon 5

Wait, where’s the information about the Minbari rebelling against the Vorlons?! I don’t think I’d heard that before!

There's a lot more about it in the B5 RPG, which is canon.

Essentially, both the Vorlons and the Shadows failed to grasp that the universe requires balance, and imposing their extreme philosophies on the races they were trying to uplift ultimately induced each to move towards balance to cancel out the extreme: the Minbari rebelled, and when they redeveloped put a lot of points of flexibility into their otherwise rigid culture; the Drakh became deeply submissive to and dependent on the Shadows to the point that they have no real aspirations of their own when abandoned. So each subject species developed in ways that the opposite side would have approved of.

I'd use a lot of words to describe Minbari culture but flexible is not one of them lol.

They seem very rigid... but then they have all those exceptions. They're born into their caste... unless they follow the calling of their heart. They do not kill Minbari... unless they accept a challenge to a duel to the death. They do not lie... unless it's help someone else save face.

In addition to all the exceptions in their rules, they've become adept at finding way to technically not violate the rules while doing what they wish to.

It'd be pretty easy to assume that a certain half-Mimbari is involved in any rebellion.

It's been three seasons, what does it take to get Kosh in the opening credits?!

not being portrayed by 3 actors.

One of the Kosh actors was part of the Babylon Podcast years ago. I'm pretty sure that's the first podcast I ever listened to. He was worked for NASA iirc.

It should have been "And Kosh as himself".

How can you be sure, could be anyone in the encounter suit.

"We are all Kosh".

Plus the one episode where it wasn't Kosh in the encounter suit.

I don't agree with the memory of G'Kar's father that there's more dignity in letting the guy who devastated your homework with meteors live, at least at that point it's not just a never-ending circle of revenge. If nothing else G'Kar should tell somebody what he saw in Londo's mind.

I don't think that was really the point. The Narn have become obsessed with vengeance on the Centauri to the point that they've been slowly reducing their entire identity to hating them. If they ever managed to achieve their desire, there'd be nothing left and they would have nothing further to live for - the need for revenge would have ended up destroying both peoples.

G'Kar's 'father' argues that, if the Narn truly ARE a dying people, then it's better for them to die as themselves and leave a positive legacy behind than to be consumed entirely by hatred.

Ultimately this ties in to the Vorlons' concern about identity and self-definition, in contrast to the Shadows' focus on desire and change.

Plus as the aforementioned meteor bit showed, it's really not a fight the Narn are in a position to win. Especially post 2nd occupation.

It also kinda links to why Morden gave up on G'kar and didn't see him as a worthy mark. Because G'kar didn't really have any grand ambitions. If he wiped out the Centauri, he'd just...stop. Because he (and by proxy in that scene, the Narn) aren't interested in conquering the Drazi or the Brakiri or the Earth Alliance or anyone else, and they're not interested in starting wars with anyone else, even if they're willing to sell weapons. None of the other races want to conquer the Narn, so the Narn don't want to conquer them.

The Narn hate the Centauri, but it's a limited hate that has no real ambition to it and if they succeeded without focusing on a different legacy, they'd have nothing.

The Centauri, on the other hand, still maintain their dream of empire and want to be the big dominant power in the galaxy, and (as we see in the big picture) the only powers they won't touch are the Minbari and the Vorlons. But the Minbari aren't expansionist or interventionist and the Vorlons seem extremely uninterested in the Centauri and won't do anything about the Centauri re-establishing their empire, as long as the Centauri leave the Vorlons alone.

They're much easier to manipulate into causing chaos and war that will itself spark off more cycles of violence in the long run than the Narn, who, if they ever win, would just...stop.

Edited by Zendervai on Apr 3rd 2024 at 4:20:06 AM

It's also implied that was actually Kosh, speaking through the memory of G'kar's father.

Considering that the show deals with both reincarnation and time travel, for all we know Kosh WAS G'Kar's father.

Edited by Melendwyr on Apr 3rd 2024 at 5:07:29 AM

...not really, the show doesn't actually portray reincarnation like that.

It's not so much implied as it's basically straight up told. He turns into G'Lan at the end lol. He also uses a ton of Kosh's quotes ("I have always been here") and G'Kar comes to with Kosh standing right behind him lol

Only way it gets more blatant is Kosh going "My work here is done. KOSH OUT!"

Edited by Ghilz on Apr 3rd 2024 at 5:11:59 AM

Yeah, that scene is not the moment of revelation G’Kar thinks it is; it’s him being manipulated by Kosh for Kosh’s own purposes.

"You just got KOSHED!" *shuffles away*

In hindsight, that does kind of foreshadow a bit the Vorlons' actual role in things rather than being benevolent mentors.

Yes, there's a great moment when Kosh is revealed as an angelic figure.

Fans think, "Oh, the Vorlons are angels."

When it's actually, "Vorlons impersonate gods."

I read Childhood's End recently and I suspect that JMS got the idea of aliens inspiring religious figures (devils in CE’s case) from it.

It's even more sinister, it's not "Vorlon Impersonate Gods", it's "Vorlons set themselves up as gods". Since the implication is that many of these figures and beliefs are seeded into the younger races by the Vorlons.

To Kosh's credit, it actually is though. Sure, he's being self serving, but Kosh's point to G'Kar is also entirely valid without the whole Shadow War going on.

Kosh gives this vibe that he's probably one of the oldest Vorlons, and one of the few who still sorta has an inkling about what their original goal was. Not that he's not fully into the whole dick measuring contest with the Shadows thing, but Kosh gives the vibe that he at least remembers that somewhere along the way the goal was to make the younger races grow. Which contrasts him with his more dogmatic successor.

Of course, this entirely possible that it's me reading a bit into it, Kosh is kinda (mostly) long dead by the time the we learn the truth of the Vorlons' whole deal.

"You just got KOSHED!" *shuffles away*

I love it.

Edited by Ghilz on Apr 6th 2024 at 2:21:54 PM

Earth's gods being inspired by Ancient Astronaut aliens is a lot more widespread than that, both in science fiction and as a legit pseudoscience theory.

Also, if I remember right, in Childhood's End the aliens resembling your stereotypical horned devils was just a coincidence.