Neon Genesis Evangelion

Saw this really good analysis of Evangelion. It also explains the purpose of the Rebuilds pretty well. Talking about how they were a response to the fanbase using the show as escapism when it heavily preaches against it. It's 40 minutes, so it's quite long, but check it out if you have the time.

Edited by SilverWinds on Dec 30th 2018 at 3:31:40 PM

Have probably said this before, but if Anno honestly thought the fans would find a character like Rei creepy instead of sympathetic, I'm sorry, that's on him.

People loving and sexualizing things they never intended to be sexualized is just human nature. I cant blame him for not expecting it. And as shown some of the most subpar crap people will sexualize and make popular.

He finally got the unsettling down with Rei Q with Shinjis reaction to it, and she still gets her own arc of trying to be her own self near the end when she suffers a crisis of identity.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 30th 2018 at 4:29:19 AM

Without the post apocalyptic life that came after Second Impact Rei would be nothing like how we know her huh? She'd be quite more similar to Yui the experts think?

Okay so, just for an example suppose real Rei came across that German physics book anime Rei was into, or suppose anime Rei came across something from our real world, maybe something on war philosophy, something on child soldiers, something like Metal Gear. Never mind that Rei quite likely has no interest in games, maybe she can relate to the ideas in it. How do you think Rei, either version, might react?

I really have no patience for works of escapism (FICTION) that are down on escapism. It's sort of like the fact there is no such thing as an antiwar war movie. You cannot make a movie about heroic soldiers and fighting and then say "war is bad." You cannot write a story about scaping into another world and another life and then say "escapism is bad."

That video was interesting but I disagree with every single one of its points. Shinji damning the world for Rei? That is what I'd do. If you are willing to let go of your love, you don't truly love them. Love means making any sacrifice.

And this Sekaikei genre is interesting but I don't understand it. Relationship are at the heart of the narrative? That's a ton of stories. That's Persona. I guess it's an "exclusive" relationship with a heavy emphasis on just two people and ignoring the rest of the world yet somehow this relationship also determines the fate of the world? I really don't get it.

I can't say I see it the same way. Love isn't some end all be all emotional state. Love can be damaging. Love can be bad for you and the people around you. Some connections aren't worth keeping if you're burning yourself away to keep them. One person isn't and never will be worth the fate of every other person. A work with any amount of optimism will never frame it in a way that pulls it into just one or the other, because concepts like love rely on optimism to function the way we want them to.

• Heaven's Feel intensifies*

Edited by SilverWinds on Jan 12th 2019 at 10:16:08 AM

It's not that Rei would be a different person without NERV and Second Impact. It's that she wouldn't exist. She's not just a person randomly brought into the world because two people found each other attractive. She was purpose-built as a mass-produced, replaceable guidance system for an immensely powerful weapon. Without that, there is no Rei, only an unrelated girl with the same name.

As for Rei, I think Anno meant her to be unsettling, but not repulsive. She's a tragic figure who simply has a vastly more difficult time gaining the sense of self-worth that is vital to any Evangelion character's salvation because she actually was purpose-built to be a tool for someone else. Even her rebellion involves sacrificing herself for Shinji, which is why Rei Q, despite being more immediately unsettling, is also in a much better position to become a fully self-actualised person - the people she exists to serve don't treat her well enough for her to be so keen on throwing her life away for them, letting Asuka, one of the few characters in the film with her shit more or less together, break through to her.

Honestly, I think the whole situation with Rei in 2.22 and 3.33 is indicative of Anno's troubles when it comes to properly weaving themes and symbolism with the story and character development.

Here we have a situation where a character, who has pretty much believed herself to be expendable and the like is told by someone who she has grown to care about tell her that she's unique, and that's why he'll save her. Heck, her growth and emerging humanity throughout the second film is proof of that. So when Shinji saves her, it feels natural and the potential for those two to continue their relationship and see how it affects both them personally and how they interact with the others is right there. Heck, through each other, both Shinji and Rei began to open up to other people, as shown with their interactions with Asuka.

However, Anno doesn't see it that way. For Shinji and Rei's relationship continue to be expanded on would in his eyes, be little more than the former ultimately choosing escapism over accepting reality. He can't see Rei as a character worth exploring more deeply or developing further. Instead, he only sees her as a symbol for people's obsession with submissive waifus and a way to express the theme that characters like her aren't worth being with because they don't represent reality. So in 3.33, he makes it so that Shinji choosing to save Rei was the worst thing he could've done, as doing so led to the death of millions, and everyone views him with contempt because of it.

Just like that, the opportunity for character growth and relationship building is squandered, all so Anno can cram the message that he feels everyone must abide by down the throat of the audience. He goes totally for theme communication over potentially interesting plot and character development. For me at least, it just doesn't work because I know I'm being lectured here as opposed to allowing me to find themes organically or come up with my own conclusions.

Obsessing over a girl over everything else is exactly what Gendo does. Even Fuyutsuki can't let go of Yui and it lets him traumatize a boy no matter how much he might feel guilt about it.

Bae before (Tokyo) Bay.

I still can't exactly agree with that statement in regards to Shinji and Rei's relationship in 2.22. Shinji saw someone who he could save and who he had a large attachment to, and simply seized the opportunity to rescue her. Him refuting Rei's statement that she'll be replaced is also him telling her that she is better than she thinks she is. He didn't know what was gonna happen, and in the heat of the moment, of course you're only gonna be focused on the objective at hand, not on what might happen as a result.

Anno just seems to be trying to force this action into being seen as the action of an immature and obsessed individual, when I feel that wasn't needed. But if course, he can only see things through the view of symbolism and how he can cram themes down the viewers' throats. Hence, why he made it so that Shinji killed millions as a result.

Doing something in the moment without knowing the consequences is an objective view that people might take different points on, especially in regards to culpability. Just cause he thought he could save her doesn't change the damage done to any of those who suffered as a result, and it didn't get worse thanks to Kaworu.

But I will say trying to deny escapism entirely falls into another unhealthy extreme that fiction that is escapist in nature tend to treat escapism as blasphemous don't realize people do need escapism in some form to remain healthy individuals, and its too much of it that is a bad thing.

Shinji gets lambasted with reality with no real forms of healthy escapism that could ease his pain until Kaworu took the literal representstion of his sins (the Choker) onto himself, but after hearing in his own head what Kaworu intended with the Spears thinks he has an easy Reset Button to all his problems. So slides into the unhealthy aspect.

The Caligula Effect which has some Anti-Escapism vibes did a good job with its anime by doing the opposite and making clear people need something to bring happiness to their lives. If thats escapism and its the only way for that person to get any kind of happiness, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you go too far into it it can also lead one down a path of self-destruction in its own right.

Which is also what happens in 3.0 when everyone told him not to grab the spears. Including Kawou who did everything possible to earn his faith.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 13th 2019 at 1:15:05 AM

Yeah, that's why I have a problem with Anno's views on escapism.

Also, your thoughts on this analysis of Shinji and Rei's relationship?

"And then, we had Shinji giving up in the world to save Rei; The otaku culture giving up on their lives to live their escapism in the form of anime; Rei begs for Shinji to let her go, telling the audience that she's just a anime character, nothing worth living for, but Shinji representing the audience is unable to move on, he only wants her and nothing else. And so it happens. Shinji's life and world goes to hell, and in echange he gets to live on his escapism with his emotionless sexy waifu; Just like how the japanese rejected the message Eva was built to give and chose to dive deeper into their escapism via anime

Rei was so beloved in japan for her total lack of emotion, a phallic girl (What Anno intended as a way for creeping out people who lust for anime characters, but once again backfired);And thats why she's the one saved; Representing every Waifu and the obsession people have for them Shinji gives up on his life and relationships with people surrounding him to be with her, despite the fact that she's nothing but a doll with no personality or feelings and who will only do what you order her and nothing more; What Anno made Rei become in 3.33;

As the salty fans hating on the movies said, 3.33 is not eva anymore. Rei is not her anymore. But that's the goddamned point;

The true curse of Eva, just like how the pilots remained children and didn't change at all in 14 years, the fanbase didn't change a thing in between the 14 years gap between Eo E and 3.33; And giving the fans what they wanted, giving them their dear waifu, their escapism would only bring them sadness just like how Shinji couldn't cope with the new Rei, as she's not what he wanted; Not worth everything he threw away for; Shinji's desire for being with Rei as a embodiment of escapism and only a emotionless material being only brought him sadness when he threw away his relationship with others and life for;

Rei Q is a representation of the misunderstanding of Rei's character as a whole, on how the fans were turned on by a emotionless girl instead of seeing it as a flaw she had to overcome, and therefore can never act like the original"

If true, then wow, talk about having contempt for the audience for not viewing a character precisely the way one wanted and views. For that matter, talk about not understanding that some may like Rei for reasons other than being submissive.

I don't even think you need to have contempt to want people to see things the way you do. Its why I do like how Shinjis rejection of Rei Q as Rei is leading her to form he rown identity as the chaos aorund her happens beyond her control. Its quick, but I do like it. She herself ends up rejecting the role fans were meant to see her as but is not becoming the original Rei either.

Edit: And yeah I could see Anno doing things the way he did this time to show ''how'm he intended it originally. Which can come off malicious even if he just thinks this is the only way to display how he meant things originally.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 13th 2019 at 1:24:21 AM

The thing is that, everyone has their own interpretations on a story and characters, and people seeing Rei as someone who is sympathetic and worthy of Shinji's love and the like is, while not what Anno intended, still a valid interpretation. But Anno simply can't fathom people not seeing a character the exact way he does. For him, there is only one interpretation, and only one correct way of viewing a character. You can't like a character he dislikes, and you can't dislike a character he likes. Nor can you view them any other way than how Anno sees them, and if he has to bend the story to make that happen, he will gladly do it.

He really just doesn't seem to be flexible or even encouraging of different points of view that aren't his, because he views his message as being the only one that people should listen to and abide by. I could understand this in the original because he was going through a depression, but with Rebuild, I can't really grant him that levity.

You can have people with different opinions and the like, but you can make clear what ones personal intent was even if it doesn't fit anything the fans want. This isn't something Anno alone does. There are plenty like that.

Ive had penty of arguments over something due to it being hard to tell what the authors intent was originally before it gets answered by the creators themselves in some form. Sometimes fitting perfectly with what I was thinking, other times not.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 13th 2019 at 2:09:24 AM

The problem is that when you're in a weird Oedipal union with a kaiju-sized Reality Warper, intent matters. Shinji didn't just want to save Rei. He specifically said 'if I can't save Rei, I don't matter', just like he didn't matter if he couldn't please his dad, if he couldn't make Kaworu happy, and so on. It's a perspective born out of intense self-hatred, the belief that you are only valuable insofar as you are useful to others, and when you become the most powerful being on Earth and your sense of self begins to encompass the entire planet... well, we all saw what happened. Shinji's desire to save Rei wasn't healthy because he wanted to destroy himself to do it - or, more accurately, it was yet another excuse for him to self-destruct.

You have an... interesting view of what does and does not count as "is same character" when it comes to alternate universes.

Typically, AU characters will have a similar point of origin and similar circumstances. It's normally 'like canon, unless noted'. The problem is that Rei was born of a pretty specific, inflexible set of circumstances. Gendo and Yui could have had a kid called Shinji in half a billion different settings. Gendo manufacturing a mass-produced weapon that's half an alien and half a clone of his wife requires a few more things to go a particular way.

One example is The Apocalypse Manga the Angels, Kaworu, and Rei were cores possessing human bodies. Though Rei and Kaworu were grown with their bodies unlike the rest.

What's the source for that "analysis." A pretty pessimistic view of the ship I must say.

EOE teaches us that Impacts are shaped by the will of the people who trigger them, while 3.0 carries through on 2.0's hints and lays out explicitly why Shinji fucked up by having him make the exact same mistakes again. As ANN's Zac Bertschy put it, your girlfriend won't save you from your own self-hatred.

That phrase is exactly why I don't see any relationship between Shinji and Rei as positive, the latter is too isolated from the world to properly know what a healthy human relationship entails, while the former would never confront his psychological issues if he's with someone that basically enables those issues.

Mind you, Asuka can run into the same problem by being too confrontational with Shinji, however, I would say that in the original show both acted as foils at their highest point, with their relationship also serving as a mirror to Misato's and Kaji's. Asuka also confronted Shinji's tendency to self-punish himself, much like he also called her out for evading her own guilt in their first sortie together.

@ Silver Winds

I actually think of that when I see people trying to defend leaving the rest of the world to die for just one person. It's also why I dislike that route on principle, nothing against Sakura though.

That's funny because I got the exact opposite impression. Shinji and Rei have a lot of the same issues (largely stemming from the same person being the source of them) so I feel they'd better be able to help each other through them. Sometimes you need a kindred spirit.