Fallout Series: Because Arguing Never Changes

If you say so.

Not fond of what you're implying about me but okay.

I'm not implying anything.

I don't think they look that much alike, that's all.

I don't think they look that much alike. BUT I know enough about art design concepts where I feel like I can see an artist trying to deliberately allude to a different character without copying their look outright.

Yeah, I think the five red lines going down make it more than a coincidence. The ripped sleeves too, for that matter. And the similarity to ED-E's obsession with Ralphie. And this being the vision of America that it was, I can sort of imagine the idea is that this is the token black character of the show, thus the one the black kids are 'supposed to' latch onto, which I remember from my own youth in the '90s (except Asian rather than black). If that's unsettling, I think that's probably how it's meant.

Not saying that necessarily means people should be cool with it. Because I do think it kind of lessens Ulysses as a character to suggest this is how he came up with the idea. There are ways you could play it where it maybe didn't, but I'm not sure we're going to see that kind of nuance here.

Also, just noticed this — the Commonwealth Flag has 14 stars. Ulysses's duster has 13. Brickhouse's emblem has 12. Does that mean something? Was there maybe some parallel to the Thirteen Colonies leading up to the war that I'm forgetting? Is it a Watchmen sort of thing where the annexation of Canada is the fourteenth star or something?

Edited by Unsung on Aug 14th 2020 at 7:47:24 AM

Yeah the number of stars has always been inconsistent. The general Fanon explanation seems to be that they added a star for Canada. So 13 for each "commonwealth" and 1 for Canada. The 12-star version seems to just be a common graphic design mistake

Edited by Dirtyblue929 on Aug 14th 2020 at 7:58:57 AM

Alright, works for me, then. Thanks.

Okay so I haven't thought about it too hard and it didn't even bother me too much to begin with, but I'm starting to be even less bothered by the idea that Ulysses stole his symbol because it creates this kind of thematic irony around him and supports my personal interpretation of his character — that is to say, a wise but somewhat arrogant and accidentally hypocritical person, who went mad because he couldn't handle the harsh reality that everything he loved and all of his hopes were annihilated by accident by someone who didn't even realize what they were doing.

(Note: this isn't me saying I don't like him. I think this makes for an awesome, tragic character and he's my favorite part of the NV DLCs)

As I remember, he mentions that his symbol (the "circular starfield with five vertical red stripes" variant of the American flag that we only see from him and now Armor Ace) was adopted from Hopeville, who used the symbol themselves for their community (I might be wrong, but it's kind of a key part of this theory, so whatever). He adopted it because he felt he completely understood its meaning — a symbol of hope amid chaos, crushed by unforseen tragedy — and identified with it. But then this new possibility that its origins are far less profound kind of accentuates my whole "he's a bit of a hypocrite due to his obsessive madness" interpretation.

He despises people who adopt symbols and ideas without understanding their history and meaning, it's the core of his character — but without realizing it, he's done it himself, just as the people of Hopeville likely did when they took up the symbol. It's kind of the cherry on top of all the tragedy surrounding him — he thinks he's finally got it all figured out, but in the end he's the latest victim in a centuries-long game of telephone that started with a Saturday-Morning Cartoon and ended with a sad, lonely killer lashing out at the world with nuclear weapons.

Again, I only just started thinking about it in-depth and I'm sure there's a million counterpoints to be raised about how this is actually really dumb and cheapens his character, but for now I'm actually kinda okay with it.

Edited by Dirtyblue929 on Aug 15th 2020 at 11:50:07 AM

That's an interesting take on it. And I mean I can't exactly refute it, either, it not being out yet, me not having played 76, and who knows, maybe that *is* how it was intended by the devs. I just wonder how much of that is going to come across in the in-game bit.

Probably not at all really. I doubt we'll hear anything New Vegas related except a few nods, which is the most Bethesda has done with New Vegas came out. They rarely acknowledge it. If I had to be cynical, they probably don't like it being the most popular Fallout game.

Doing more than indirect nods probably does involve stepping on toes. Not to mention paying royalties. I don't know if it's all that cynical to think maybe there's some rivalry when it comes to their respective writers' rooms. On the other hand, they can probably comfort themselves with their total sales numbers. Then again the various season pass/76 debacles might make them a little more insecure.

But yeah. I'm not really expecting them to address it directly in-game. I'd be much more surprised if they did.

What rivalry? Obsidian is beyond Fallout by now. They don't exist in the equation. But Bethesda does seem kinda haunted by the fact that A LOT of the games are compared negatively to New Vegas. Even the Fallout 3 that preceded it cannot hold a candle to New Vegas. I know 3 has it's fans but I just can't find the love for it. The plot is too narrow for an rpg and struggles against trying to provide choices and ignoring context to make things work. And I'm always reminded of how spiteful the ending of that game is. "You did the smart thing and sent your Super-mutant friend in there so no one had to die... BUT YOU DIDN'T SACRIFICE YOURSELF FOR THE GREATER GOOD SO YOU'RE A SHITTY FUCKING COWARD AND EVERYONE HATES YOU."

Yes, everyone hates me because I didn't die in the process of getting everyone FREE. WATER. Fuck off, mate.

I don't think Elder Scrolls gets quite out of this unscathed either because, for as many as I hear praise Skyrim to high Valhalla, I hear a lot of sentiments that Skyrim consistently has the width of an ocean with the depth of a puddle. It feels like Fallout if it never got it's New Vegas spin-off.

Well, I sort of meant a one-sided sense of rivalry on the part of Bethesda's writers.

But on the other side of the coin, Fallout was Obsidian's baby, from back when they were still Black Isle. Bethesda's made more money from it than they ever did, and Obsidian still lost out on the bonus payment for it by one lousy point — I have to imagine that stings, whether or not they blame that on Obsidian. And it's probably not about the writing for Obsidian, because there's a clear winner there and I think they're fairly confident about that. But I do think even if The Outer Worlds wasn't actually intended to rub 76 in Bethesda's face, it was there for Obsidian to prove they could compete in the AAA pool as other devs in general, if given the chance.

I'm not talking about a cutthroat, neck-and-neck archenemies rivalry. Just the sense of competing for who mommy (the audience) loves best, sort of thing.

I don't like 3 much, either. I can enjoy playing it, but I don't play it for the story or characters.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 17th 2020 at 7:38:42 AM

So.

If Fallout were a fighting game franchise, which characters would make up the core roster, and who would be your main pick?

Well, since you asked...

The Vault Dweller (in vault suit, alien ray gun, Nuka-Cola and iguana on a stick, taunts/talking the monster to death), The Chosen One (tribal armour, throwing spear, explosives), The Lone Wanderer (combat armor, rifle on the back, Dogmeat), The Courier (cowboy hat and duster, revolver, machete, ED-E), The Sole Survivor (able to jump in and out of power armor, minigun, super sledge), Tycho the Desert Ranger, Set the ghoul, Marcus the super mutant, Goris the deathclaw, Sara Lyons (full power armor, laser rifle, with Lyons' Pride and Liberty Prime as backup), Colonel Autumn, Veronica (power fist, EMP grenades, bottlecap mines), Joshua Graham, Nick Valentine (with the Sole Survivor in their Silver Shroud costume as an alternate skin), Codsworth. Bosses: Frank Horrigan, The Think Tank, The Master.

I like the version of the Vault Dweller I have in my head — a bit like Frank West from Marvel vs. Capcom 3, very under-prepared for what he's stepping into, getting by on improvisation.

Shaved off a few picks since it was already getting to be a pretty long list and I felt like they'd end up having similar fighting styles to others already on the list — Sulik, one of the aliens, Glory, Elijah, a mother Deathclaw, Barnaky the brain bot. Then again maybe the player characters would be better off being actual NPCs instead of one player's idea of those characters.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 23rd 2020 at 8:16:29 AM

...I'm trying to wrap my head around how The Master would work as a fighting game character, lol.

Probably not playable, more of a sidescroller/gimmick boss than a typical one-on-one fight. Rooted in place but, say, lots of elevation control, able to telescope up and down on the spot intead of jumping, and with cheating SNK Boss blocks/force fields and substantial "reach" in the form of fast, powerful projectile attacks. Nothing that hasn't been done in a fighting game before, necessarily. I don't know that I'd even make him the final boss, but I'm not sure who else to add.

Microsoft and Bethesda have entered into an agreement in which Microsoft will acquire Bethesda Softworks and its studios.

Huh.

Well huh. I'm kinda worried since Microsoft also owns obsidian now. On otherhand, Obsidian written Fallout? ;D But yeah seriously, microsoft probably would make better job managing Bethesda than Bethesda does

Edited by SpookyMask on Sep 21st 2020 at 4:28:06 PM

Funny you should bring up the fact that Obsidian and Bethesda are both under the same umbrella now...

Because someone brought up the possibility of a Fallout: New Vegas 2 to Obsidian and they responded...sort of.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Sep 21st 2020 at 10:09:51 AM

So how is Microsoft when it comes to treating it's employees and IPs, would we see any improvement, downgrades or just a case of Meet the New Boss?

Look at Rare's output under Microsoft.

I don't really play Rare games.

Sea of Thieves has been a pretty big success, and Microsoft has let them come out with new versions of Killer Instinct and Battletoads. They seem to be doing okay.

Microsoft's had things like Halo and Gears of War and Microsoft Flight Simulator, and they bought Minecraft. They own Arkane, and Double Fine, too, which I did not remember. So I get the feeling they actually do buy companies they like and let them do what they do? To a greater extent than EA, anyway. And of course they do Windows and X Box, so I think maybe they actually leave a lot of their games division with a bit of a surprisingly free hand. Maybe.

Microsoft buying Bethesda is wonderful news for the Fallout series, now we might actually get more Obsidian made Fallouts!

Though I'd prefer if it wasn't New Vegas 2, there's no reason that the Fallout verse has to be hyperfocused on California. I want a well written Fallout game set in Georgia or Louisiana.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 21st 2020 at 12:18:40 PM