During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I'm going to make an effort to defend Preston because I really think he counts here.
The heinous standard in this franchise is originally set by the Penguin from Wrong Trousers, right? The first villain sets it. And that's a low bar, as all that villain does is nearly kill the protagonists and steal a diamond. Preston far eclipses that. Can you compare him to Piella when she comes after him and if anything, she should be compared to the previous villains? (Honestly i'm not sure how comparing them works.) Along with that, if you do compare him to Piella, there's the matter of the differing goals.
Preston didn't want to murder a dozen people, he's neutral evil: he'll do whatever his plan asks for, no matter who he has to murder he doesn't care. Piella is a straight up serial killer. And even then, Preston would have had a higher bodycount if he succeeded, especially including the sheep he already murdered. It's the attempted mincing murder plus the framing of someone for the murder-he-already-commited and getting them a life sentence that pushes him far over the line.
And why would you compare him to her after that in the first place?! Compare the animal villain to the other animal villains, not the human serial killer, and he's the worst of them.
Then comes the tricky, quite vague, dilemma of his agency. Unllike most AI gone wrong stories, there's never a mention that Preston had a "bug in his programming" or anything like that. The most we get of it is that he was a good dog that went rogue. It appears that he's done this completely out of his own will. But I will say the short is very vague on this and it could ultimately go either way - still, this is the way I lean.
If anything I'm more dubious on Piella counting than anything. She dies because she's fat... that's not what a CM does. at all. She uses rolling pins as swords while making funny noises.
Oh and a yea to the Chameleon there.
edited 12th Feb '18 11:40:33 AM by MahStache
Honestly at eleven canonical villains and most of them not having many resources? It will be interesting if anybody counts in future star wars installments now considering even snoke is not heinous enough due to how he has much more room to be evil considering what he has.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
@lore Yeah I guess it wouldn't hurt to wait. Besides, from my research Azshara has more crimes in the next expansion also. We will see.
edited 12th Feb '18 11:41:44 AM by Knack2baby
Wait, Azshara's finally getting killed?!
....also, should we revisit Piella? Too many people are bringing this issue out and I'm no longer sure she counts.
I really, really think we should just cut Piella. I'm no more convinced to keep Preston whatsoever, but if anything, you've strengthened the case for cutting Piella even more. She's a bloody caricature and I don't think she or anything in the short (or anything in the Wallace and Gromit shorts) is played so dead seriously enough to warrant the CM tag.
@lightysnake Eh, overall she does count, only problem is if she is played seriously enough and I watched a matter of loaf and death. It will probably be divisive at best.
Yeaaaahh. Going over her entry it is hard to say. It doesn't matter to me personally but she might be cut based on whether or not she is played seriously enough.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mothergod and Chameleon
Lizzid people!
Mothergod, and Chameleon.
In love with an Uptown Girl
Piella is a CM who, while having comedic moments, still ultimately has her crimes played completely straight. The short makes no attempt to hide how awful her crimes are, does not play her abuse of Fluffles for laughs at all or make fun of her petty, vindictive nature. Heck, the only moments she is played for laughs are early in the short and whenever she is being given comeuppance.
Also, just because a CM has a comical death, looking at Archbald Snatchet here, doesn’t mean they can’t count. How does Snatchet die? He eats cheese and explodes. How does Piella die? She’s so fat she ends up weighing a balloon down into a crocodile pit, however, her death is comedic yet not entirely played for laughs, as both Wallace and Fluffles treat it with all the weight her death has.
Also, she is a very realistic depiction of a Serial Killer. Her motive is revenge, she collects trophies from her victims, all of this is treated as seriously as it would be in real life, and she isn’t very bright. She isn’t a caricature at all, she’s comedic yet her crimes are played completely seriously and she is not presented as being sympathetic at all.
If you want, I will do a second EP for a definitive decision. In my opinion, Piella is played just seriously enough to count.
edited 12th Feb '18 12:01:02 PM by Vampireandthen
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
V
I agree with Mah Stache
So anyways, yes I think that Mogul Razdunk of the venture company based on info from the next expansion does count. I cannot say why here because of potential spoilers. PM if you want to discuss it.
I'm echoing Scraggle at this point. Kind of changed my mind on Piella now.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Preston for being kinda dodgy on agency. It's not like AM or Skynet or versions of Brainiac who very clearly are not just the result of a glitch. Still abstaining on Piella.
And let's stop mentioning his Snokiness until we have something to add, whether closing the book on him entirely or adding him up. hatetheguythoughhehurtmysonbensolomypreciouscinnamonrollalthoughhedidshipreylohecouldnthavebeenallbadbutthenhetriedtoshiptheshipsoheinvalidatedthatredeemingqualitybutitdoesntmatteranywayfornow
In love with an Uptown Girl
Look, we can re-examine Piella later, okay? She still counts, trust me.
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
I think now is fine to do so with the other discussions ongoing. Given the sheer comedic nature of the work and having looked up clips...
Yeah, no postponing. Let's resolve this now. I don't think she counts. The setting and tone is not properly conducive for a CM and Piella is not played as dead seriously enough on the whole to warrant the tag. She suffers as a consequence of the short being a comedy.
So anyone want to discuss said character from warcraft? 
Oh and I agree that Piella should be resolved. She is a divisive character to say the least.
edited 12th Feb '18 12:29:55 PM by Knack2baby
In love with an Uptown Girl
Later, I have an exam right now.
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Well, nothing compels you to respond instantly. You can come to see what everyone has said after.
@Knack: If you want to discuss him, please do an effrtpost? We can't vote on what we don't know.
I agree that she shouldn't count. She's far from being serious enough to be a CM, and the abuse of her dog is being really overplayed. She lightly pushes it with her foot and uses her as a hostage... it's not like she's kicking it in the ribs so hard that its heart explodes out of its eye sockets. It's bad yes but not a truly despicable CM-worthy act. In general she's just much too silly and the general mood of that short specifically is very comedic, even moreso than the earlier shorts.
@lightysnake I would like to but the most critical information about him is from the next expac which is months away. I do not want to accidentally spoil anyone because of the rules. It is not critical to the overall plot but I remember the Kil'jaeden discussion and how he was accidentally discussed before the deadline. Is a PM alright?
edited 12th Feb '18 12:36:32 PM by Knack2baby
In that case, we're going to wait until the next expansion and the relevant time has passed.
I consider Cho'Gall to be the current minimum standard for Warcraft. We'll see if the head of the Venture Company counts, but I highly doubt it at this point.
As for updated entries, AU Gul'dan has probably been updated enough, Xavius could definatley use an expansion, and we might as well wait until Battle for Azeroth since Azshara is scheduled to be a raid encounter.
edited 12th Feb '18 11:38:42 AM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.