Final Fantasy general

...that's the entire point? Zidane became who he was because of his loved ones. Loved ones Kuja obviously never had.

Kuja is a great villain because we all might have been him. He raged against his fate and came to a pretty logical conclusion: if he wanted to be free, he had to get stronger. If Zidane and friends couldn't beat up Garland, what good is all that friendship? Perhaps power is the real core of everything as Kuja believes.

But he doesn't' regret anything he has done, he just wants to be the God King of puppy kicking instead of a henchman. It doesn't exactly feel humanizing or sympathetic when his goal is to topple his creator in a Bastard Understudy fashion. Its straight up Evil vs. Evil, and Kuja isn't even the lesser evil, since at least Garland has a nobler cause of giving the people of Terra a second chance at life.

Edited by lycropath on Apr 4th 2019 at 2:41:22 AM

They did though, so his whole pedestal is pretty pointless. It wasn't even that hard for them. He even spends a decent chunk of the game trying to unlock something he himself points out even tiny woodland creatures can apparently do without a lot of effort, so his struggles all feel hollow.

There's not a whole lot relatable about his story other than his anger at being rejected, which he blows so ridiculously out of proportion that it no longer is.

Edited by Hashil on Apr 4th 2019 at 3:45:53 AM

Well said.

Can we talk about how the game completely glosses over how Zidane fucked over Amarant's life without real reason and never gets called out of it?

Like, what little story Amarant gets is he was a guard in Treno, failed to stop Zidane, Zidane framed him so he lost his job and became a wanted criminal.

I was amused in replaying FF 9 how everyone sort of goes "lol, Classic Zidane!", even Amarant seems for annoyed by Zidane having beaten him than the whole "gratuitously wrecking his life".

Edited by Ghilz on Apr 4th 2019 at 6:41:07 AM

...We don't actually know much about Amarant's life actually.

Maybe what Zidane did barely changed anything. Like he was already a criminal, but managed to get hired as a guard due to something else, and after getting framed it was just business as usual.

Trance is a weird mystical thing. Kuja thought it was caused by the desire to protect somebody and indeed, most of the story Trance activations happen out of a selfless concern for somebody else. Kuja is many things but selfless is not one of them. So it's unsurprising he never considered that as a path to power. Unlike eidolons which Garland feared greatly.

Pretty much. Amarant's immediate reaction to being framed is to calmly walk away.

Edited by Nikkolas on Apr 4th 2019 at 3:52:09 AM

FFIX is my favorite FF. Bar none.

The story is fucking stupid, though.

"Maybe he was a criminal" is a pretty wild jump to make just because he doesn't try to defend himself.

Edited by Hashil on Apr 4th 2019 at 4:52:50 AM

Amarant's speech to Freya IIRC doesn't specifically say that, but the way he says it makes sound i think it's unlikely.

Besides, like that changes anything coz there's no way Zidane knew this. Or if he did it's even worse "Oh, go legit are you? Not on my watch. Have fun dodging getting prison shivved asshat!"

It's obviously a side effect that Zidane is a thief but the game never has him behave as such towards anyone who isn't a bigger asshole, so it makes the one moment of past dickery all the weirder.

"Selfless concern for somebody else" is not how I'd word Vivi's burning rage at the recently murdered Black Mages and Black Waltz 3's casual mockery of this.

Edited by Ghilz on Apr 4th 2019 at 7:03:16 AM

Key word is 'most', and I'm pretty sure Kuja was unaware of that incident

What are you talking about? He was infuriated that a bunch of people protecting him just got massacred. He was heartbroken and driven by his empathy for them to avenge their deaths. Plus he was saving Zidane, Garnet and Steiner from the murder monster.

It was totally selfless.

Edited by Nikkolas on Apr 4th 2019 at 4:09:14 AM

I believe it was that trance is a surge of strong emotion. Kuja got his from eating the souls of the invincible and the sensation of trance for him was "A thousand souls screaming in symphony driven by the greed of Queen Brahne." or something like that and not at all a righteous anger thing.

From what I remember the reason given why Kuja can't achieve Trance normally was that he was Born as an Adult and his emotions are to infantile to work and this is why Zidane was made as an ordinary child in the first place.

Edited by lycropath on Apr 4th 2019 at 4:17:28 AM

Everyone else can Trance by being hit in the face often enough. Strong emotions period are the only requisite.

I got the impression that Kuja's Trance was like, a super duper Trance that required special means. Not the kind everyone else uses. It's was permanent for him after all.

Oh he's a bad guy all right, but it's fine for characters to have some aspects that are relatable or understandable yet still do not excuse them. They aren't incompatible.

Edited by Moth13 on Apr 4th 2019 at 7:53:53 AM

Kuja's Trance was special cuz he ate Brahne and a million other Gaian souls Garland stopped from reincarnating with the Ilfa Tree to achieve it, that's why he was ludicrously powerful.

And what I mean is that Kuja's entire character is so cartoonishly evil that what should be humanizing or sympathetic rings false because he's just such an extra drama queen asshole and his "Redemption" only comes in the last ten minutes of the game.

It feels unearned.

Edited by lycropath on Apr 4th 2019 at 5:08:44 AM

Oh okay I getcha.

Every villain in FFIX is, well, redeemed is not the right word. Humanized is probably a better term for it. It's very Metal Gear Solid 1-y except moreso.

Generally speaking the villains of Metal Gear got a touching send off but they where for the most part rather unrepentant and where content to lay in the bed they made for themselves. IX's problem is that we are made to feel like they are sorry now that they are defeated or dying and not such a bad guys despite the all the puppy kicking and genocide, attempted or otherwise.

Edited by lycropath on Apr 4th 2019 at 5:50:50 AM

But that's incredibly realistic. Many people repent on their deathbed. When you've lost everything, nothing remains to blind you to how you have wasted your life. Ambitions ruined, dreams shattered, you are left with only your thoughts and your thoughts probablywould center on "what I did wrong and why I am in this position."

Kuja in particular was proven wrong in his most core ideology. Zidane was right and he was wrong and he was left to stew on that as his life drained away.

Realistic isn't always satisfying in fiction and the lack of foresight to this sudden change of heart makes it feel shallow and unearned hence the problems.

Edited by lycropath on Apr 4th 2019 at 6:15:14 AM

Even if we're playing the realism card here, if someone who's done nothing but wrong you from day one in real life begged you forgiveness on their deathbed, would you give it to them?

Edited by Hashil on Apr 4th 2019 at 7:21:03 AM

Depends on who they were, what they had done and how they were dying. I honestly can't say for certain but me? I probably couldn't.

I'm also far, far from some saint. The ideal of forgiveness for all is something we are taught to stride towards, though. The aforementioned saint is a saint precisely because they have levels of compassion surpassing that of normal men and women and that is also something we are expected to look up to. Anybody can hate and want their enemies dead; it takes a person of unparalleled character to forgive them.

To me, this argument is best summed up in Star Wars, specifically the OT vs. the ST. Luke forgives Vader and this is undeniably what the movie supports. Meanwhile, over in the new movies, people want Kylo to die alone and unmourned by all. Apparently forgiveness is not something the modern society is willing to indulge in.

People shouldn't be obligated to forgive someone who did something unfathomably shitty to them. If they decide to then that's fine but it shouldn't be expected of them to do so. I have my share of issues with that plot point from the OT too but that's off-topic.

Luke wants to save Vader, Not exonerate him for his crimes and hell the EU even keeps that Vader was only personally redeemed but his legacy is basically forever tarnished, at best he is a tragedy

Kylo they keep flip flopping between whether he can be saved, Its not his fault or no He isn't savable and this is 100% his fault, Heck they can't even stay consistent on who wants what when it comes to him

Mercy and Forgiveness are a person by person basis... Yeah I know Modern morality of 'Good' makes them mandatory but thats never gonna work out

I will say that I think Kuja in his final moments saving the party is a 180 in character.

I think it would've been nicer if Zidane sensed Kuja or something and went to him and maybe in his final moments Kuja expresses some vulnerability and has a heart to heart with him.

Because as it stands, it goes from Kuja spending the whole game instigating war and bloodshed for his own ego to "Yeah, sorry."

That's what people don't seem to understand. Forgiveness does not equal forgetting. Nobody said to forget what Vader did or what Kuja did. They simply said "I understand where you are coming from and I sympathize with you. I'm sorry you did what you did."

And I think you'd be surprised. Look at the reaction to Downfall; people felt sorry for Hitler. Who is literally Hitler. It's actually rather inspiring in a way.

Although i guess that brings up the important difference between sympathy and forgiveness. Watching even the worst people suffer and collapse can invoke pity but obviously not agreement with what they've done. That could be another way to look at Kuja.