Dragon Age

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Or that everyone in-universe has their own opinions and ideas and speak with athority on the same subject. Much like even some of the best experts today.

Frustrating for nerds who want to analyze their favorite media? Yes. Realistic? Very. Its actually something I do find genuinely compelling about Dragon Age as a franchise.

Edited by InkDagger on Jan 18th 2019 at 1:40:46 AM

This is what got me into TES stuff. Morrowind is a great game to read (shame about playing it) because of all the contrasting accounts of stuff. No one is really sure what happened at the Battle of Red Mountain.

But I don't think Dragon Age is going for that. I think the only bit that will be left ambiguous is The Maker's existence or nonexistence. Everything else will have a definite explanation.

Then we'll just argue about that explanation. All the events in DAO and DA 2 are pretty cut and dry, all the facts are agreed upon, but we still got wrong people believing Loghain did the right thing.

I mean, Solas even comments on ambiguity during Inquisition. He's seen Loghain's dreams and The Warden/Alistair's dreams about the event and which actually happened is completely to interpretation for him.

Not their dreams, but spirits reflecting all those at Ostagar, right? Here, for anyone who hasn't seen it.

It's true that as the series has moved on we've definitely gotten more answers — over the Dalish gods and the ancient elves, the magisters who entered the Black City, the fall of the Dales — but it's also true that the series opened with some deliberate ambiguities and perspectives. The codex, especially in Origins, is almost completely tied to accounts and journals, sometimes from quite biased figures. One of the little touches I liked in Origins — depending on what origin you picked, some codexes are actually different.

I think maybe the series moved away from that after Origins a bit? In Origins it's a point you're lacking critical info like, hey, Bhelen's a ruthless player of the game, but did he really outright kill his father, or did his father just pass away, and if he did was it just natural or was it exacerbated by regret over how he abandoned his son/daughter?^note In fairness, the dwarven stuff really packs in on this stuff — it's easy to do the ruthless progressive vs. ineffectual traditionalist reading in hindsight knowing the epilogue, but the actual act of understanding the dwarven election and who's who is a massive 'he said, she said' of paring through often-lying street yellers, faked documents and gambits, and politesse where no one ever really states their position openly. There's one dwarf you'll probably run into who thinks Harrowmnot is the pro-casteless option — and you convince him otherwise by lying to him! And if you haven't done the dwarf origins you'll be operating on even less info. Is lyrium the reason behind the Ashes? And it's easy to do a reading where Eamon isn't as great as Alistair might try to paint him, motivated partly by classism over what's truly best for Alistair or Ferelden.

Edited by Lavaeolus on Jan 19th 2019 at 1:08:34 PM

I don't know. I think its just the nature of a franchise. Ambiguity is harder to maintain over a longer time. Mostly due to continuity. The first game has a lot of exposition just to fill players in and give them context and that allows the writers to create and show off bias and also weave in some plot twists based on what they exposited earlier to then create a lesson for the players to learn about the world and story.

But as that continuity builds up, there are certain things that the players know for fact by this point. A LOT of things actually. And trying to be ambiguous about things the player already knows through having experienced or witnessed it is often uneededly frustrating to players or it can be read as a retcon even if it wasn't intended as such.

Or, to examplify it, players might be a lot more leniant or understanding of someone going 'MAGES ARE DANGEROUS AND CANNOT INTEGRATE IN SOCIETY' when its the first game and the players don't quite know the rules of the world and limits of magical power. They should be questioning if the statement is true or not. But, by the third game, hearing the same statement would be brushed off easily since we know that it is catagorically false with personal experiences to prove it.

And a lot of the events of Origins are based off of events in the recent past of the last decade and the player is only told about these things, like Maric and Loghain freeing Fereldan from Orlais and etc (Yes, let's ignore that the book exists for right now). By the time we get to Inquisition, the events of the recent decade the affect Inquisition and presumably DA 4 are all things that we ourselves witness. If a character decides to take liberties with the events and show bias or outright lie, the player should be aware of that and will write it off, see it as frustrating if its a particuarly agressive circumstance, or even see it as an outright retcon.

I'm not saying you CAN'T do that as Blackwall is a really good use of it since prior knowledge really only just gives you a clue or hint of something going on but doesn't outright contradict it, but that its a LOT harder to do things like that and such writing should probably be used with tact and restraint and only when it would otherwise tell the player something OTHER than 'This character is biased/lying/rectonning/an asshole'. You'd probably need to do two things at once.

Absolutely. They cannot integrate into regular society.

:)

WE MUST RULE THEM INSTEAD.

You kinda creep me out sometimes with your dehumanization of mages and denial of any flaw in Chantry doctrine despite at least four different workable systems that are less harsh than the Circles.

The Chantry's system is easily the best system for mages until the Mages are being given their freedom. We can only hope they keep a vigilant eye on their worst members. Any system which doesn't treat mages like a loaded weapon is not evil but dumb.

As for dehumanizing, that's a bizarre statement because they're dangerous BECAUSE they're human and vulnerable to temptation by Eldritch Abomination monsters who will prey on both their good as well as bad qualities.

It's why the Mage vs. Templar conflict is interesting. It's not possible to just magically wish mages to be safe to be around. If you don't watch them like hawks (or Hawkes) and put them in a Jedi Temple equivalent, then people die by the hundreds.

I think the weird fact is that people miss that I think mages are unexploded bombs but the only people who SHOULD be watching them are other mages. The Templars are woefully unqualified for the job and ideologically compromised. You need a mixed force like the Inquisition to keep them in line.

Edit:

And another note, without magic, humans are completely fucked. They're doomed to die out unless they have the power of sorcery protecting them. Mankind can't give up magic either.

Mages are the only thing keeping the demons, Blights, super dangerous animal life, and worse away.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 19th 2019 at 10:31:30 AM

How are you defining best here? I think every other system we've seen has at least some advantages over the Circles and some are flat out simply superior, though I'm not sure they would work for an urbanized society.

I think in the general context of maximizing mage safety, magical experimentation, the safety of Muggles, and the accumulation of mage lore. All the mages taken in Thedas are educated and trained to the point of being exceptionally powerful as well as able to broaden their mystical abilities. They're also educated in ethical use of their magic as well as how to control it.

The methods of the Circles are harsh and I fully believe the Rite of Tranquility was created not to "humanely" deal with mages but to have people who could safely work lyrium for financial gain by the Chantry (as well as provide magical weapons as well as equipment for the Templars). However, the Harrowing is only done when a mage has had a decade or more training to prepare for it.

Mages are not only trained to defend themselves but know when other mages are using blood magic and how to stop demons. Thanks to the Circles, they've developed cures for possession as we see with Connor. They're also, bluntly, a trained military force which can and has been used in the defense of the common human or elf.

As bad as mages have it in Thedas, a big reason they don't have it worse is because the Circles did a lot to redeem the reputations of mages during the last few Blights.

The Circles are also the greatest centers of learning on the continent, easily dwarfing the Orlaisian colleges.

The big flaws of the Circles are:

• The fact it's run by a bunch of mage-hating fanatics.
• The Rite of Tranquility is vile on every level.
• At least a couple are built on demonic hellmouths.
• Like the Hotel California, you can check in but you can never leave. Mages who complete their Harrowing should be free to go as they please.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 19th 2019 at 10:51:47 AM

The Chantry destroys mage lore. The ones who knows the way magic properly works are the remaining Immortal elves, which there are still a lot of, and Flemeth and her daughters she taught.

The Chantry doesn't even use tranquil the way it was intended, a last resort that a Mage taught them. Not to mention the blatant misuse of not using it to cure people who were unjustly trainquiled, to the point one mage I recall in II temporarily having it undone was to beg for death over returning to such an aweful state of existence.

Not to mention the blatant misuse of Blood Magic by Templars via Lyrium, precisely because the Chantry is ignorant of old magic and how intristically tied it is to the world itself.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 19th 2019 at 11:17:12 AM

Ugh, my post is getting too long and I feel like I'm just preaching when I try to talk. Long story short, I feel that the Circles in southern Thedas are basically the worst or nearly the worst in every single category from keeping people and mages alike safe to sustainability, progressiveness, effect on local law and order, social equality and the effects the system has on the Fade and spirits. The only group they consistently outperform is probably the Qunari.

The systems I'm comparing them to are the Avvar, Rivaini, Dalish elves, ancient elves, Nevarrans, Tevinters and Qunari, by the way. I know the other systems have their flaws like oppression, stagnation and difficulty applying to an urbanized society, but I think it's pretty telling when the Circles are designed to keep the common man safe but instead expose them to even more danger by causing deep social rifts between muggle and mage.

Oh and as an aside it's particularly unsustainable because for unknown reasons the number of mages is notably increasing with time. Might have worked when they were a tiny minority but they're growing in relative numbers.

The Harrowing itself is easily one of the more barbaric practices of the Circle, and it should be outlawed completely. None of the other cultures in Thedas seem to perform it, and nothing appears to indicate that abominations are more common in these areas.

Tevinter has its share of brutal mage lords and a misuse of blood magic, but Abominations don't appear to be bursting out of every noble house or Circle tower. The Dalish, likewise, have suffered abominations but they appear to be a rather rare threat. The Avvar and perhaps the Rivani watch their possessed mages to make sure everything is going all right. The Circles, arguably, do more to cause possession than prevent it due to the constant stress and trauma the mages therein are experiencing. And they force the mages to deal with the demon. It's like telling someone the best way to prove they won't get murdered is to put them alone with a murderer and defeat or outsmart said murderer.

And we have mages who already passed their Harrowing get possessed, making the entire practice appear to have no benefit.

Edited by SilentColossus on Jan 19th 2019 at 11:25:53 AM

I basically automatically discount any society ruled by mages with slavery so the Tevinter and Elven regimes are automatically much much worse than the Chantry by far. The Qunari are also worse as they are mage slaves.

The Nevarrans are Circle mages.

And the Rivanni perverted the Circle system. Whether you think it was good or bad depends on whether you buy their propaganda that it wasn't a bunch of possessed humans.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 19th 2019 at 11:31:03 AM

"This culture has a different and unrelated issue with mages, so I'm going to ignore the things they do right."

And the Dalish aren't Arlathan.

I remind you the Dalish leave any mages other than the Keeper's apprentice to die of exposure.

The Tevinter also do have Mage Circles. They're just Mage run.

By that point it's a voluntary act.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 19th 2019 at 11:33:42 AM

Again, those issues are unrelated to the Harrowing. Mages have to be taught, and there needs to be a mandatory program for that. Every culture does, except the Qun, who treat them as animals. Everyone tells a mage how to avoid possession.

Only the Circles of the south force them to prove they won't be possessed. And there is no evidence that it helps. It just kills mages deemed as weak.

(As for the Circles in Tevinter, doesn't Dorian express distress at the idea of the Harrowing? The Circles there are for education and training, but they don't kill their "weak" mages.) Edit: Pretty sure I made this one up.

Edited by SilentColossus on Jan 19th 2019 at 11:45:15 AM

The Harrowing we experience is fairly straightforward.

Some low level demons attack, you kill them.

You don't make a deal with a demon.

You pass.

I think its dangers are dramatically overstated and we know Jowan's complaints were Blatant Lies. He wasn't worried about taking the Harrowing or not being allowed to take it. He was afraid he was going to be outed as a Blood Mage.

I also find it very unlikely the Social Darwinist Tevinter don't practice their own form of the Harrowing.

Honestly, I get the weird idea the Templars and Mages get a kind of weird kick out of making what should be a straight forward test to be as objectively terrifying as humanly possible.

Which benefits no one.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 19th 2019 at 11:47:46 AM

Not at all, in fact their lack of understanding when initiating the Harrowing means they likely turn Spirits into demons in the process, since summoning spells don't distinguish between them.

Charles: The slavery in Tevinter is bad buuuut I don't think it's directly related to the magic since there are also mages who are of very low status or even slaves themselves. And to be fair the ancient elves probably don't count as a good or bad example because they were supposedly all mages, even if the ones we see don't appear to match that.

The Rivaini didn't exactly pervert the Circle system so much as utilize a level of syncretism. The Circles were there, but merged with the local belief systems that allowed for a greater amount of freedom for local mages and also encouraged healthy coexistence of spirits and humans. I think it's fair to assume that it worked at least as well for them as it does for the Avvar, who have similar practices.

Nevarrans may be Circle mages but, again, they loosened up the official Chantry doctrine with the Mortalitasi. Mages have a lot more freedom and political power without running the whole show.

Dalish don't automatically leave any mage baby to die of exposure. They first try to pass it off to another clan. But yes, they don't do so great either.

^^^ Yes, Dorian talks a bit about the Tevinter Circles. Mage society, for example, is largely self policing. They get away with a lot of shit they shouldn't but eventually even a magister knows when lines have been crossed and will get together with the other magisters to deal with an abomination.

Edited by Arha on Jan 19th 2019 at 1:51:49 PM

That's not "standard" Harrowing. There is no standard. What happens in the Harrowing depends entirely on the Demon / Spirit. The Mage Warden is very lucky that "Mouse" was content with the outcome rather than forcefully possessing them.

Again, for someone who claims to hate the Circles, you sure are willing to defend them and overlook their problems.

Edited by M84 on Jan 20th 2019 at 3:56:45 AM

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, you are doing the thing again where you ignore context or arguments that goes against your bias

Like point is, we have enough proof that other systems than circle don't have problem with abominations, but you ignore it because "Tevinter sucks in other ways!" or such. Like point in this case was "There is no real proof that Harrowing itself is necessary"

Ah, found it! If you bring Dorian into the Fade, he talks about when he first entered the Fade, he encountered a desire demon. They ate grapes, but then the demon tried to possess him. Sounds like a typical Harrowing, but if Viv is in the party, she scoffs prompting Dorian to comment that southern Harrowings are more "strenuous". The subtitles also have quotes around the word "Harrowing" when he mentions it.

The Circles in Tevinter are not even mandatory, IIRC.

Edited by SilentColossus on Jan 20th 2019 at 12:05:04 PM

I'm against the Circle system but very strongly for heavily policing mages by mages and muggles both. I also think the biggest flaw of the Circle system is the Templars, who I think are an organization which needs to be wiped out or turned into just a group of agents for the Inquisition.

Tevinter is pretty much the go-to argument for why the Circle system must exist as when you don't have it, the mages quickly rise to the top of the social pyramid. They then remove all restrictions against themselves and blood mage flourishes. Even then, the Circle system and Andastrianism keeps them from becoming completely evil like the Ancient Tevinter.

It's bad because mages dominate and conquer without people to look out after the rights of those without magic—and Blood Magic swiftly becomes their preferred tool to do it.

Yes and if you take it at face value that everything was working then it means it was a grave injustice that they were Annulled.

Yes, I heartily approve of Mages running their own Circles. The problem with Tevinter is they rapidly lost any restrictions on themselves. There's no Balance Group like the Inquisition to protect Muggles (I refuse to even consider the Templars could be reformed—destroy the order).

Yeah, they gutted the power of their Templars and humans are now their slaves.

The Avarr who kill any mages who go bad.

The Dalish...who practice on one one apprenticeships.

And a bunch of Circle variants.

Rigghhhht.

The World of Thedas says they are.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 20th 2019 at 12:34:01 PM

Short version:

My ideal system is Mage run Circles/Colleges, ban the Rite of Tranquility, and replace the Templars with a mixed order of human and mages (The Inquisition).