Dragon Age

I picked Hightown as an example because it was the first result to pop up, but I think it applies equally to Lowtown. My problem isn't open-space, exactly; I'm talking about wide flat areas that don't feel as developed, with an obvious squarish/rectangular-y design.

edited 1st Feb '18 8:01:33 PM by Lavaeolus

It probably doesn't help that we have to repeatedly go back and forth between the parts of Kirkwall throughout the game.

Yeah, that's true. And that is a big difference between Denerim and Kirkwall there; you might wander around Denerim for a bit, but it's small and somewhere the player isn't going to be constantly pushed back into. And other Origins areas like Orzammar, well, for the most part Orzammar may as well be a corridor.

That blocky design is intentional. Like the character designs, and the loading screens, it's meant to be stylized, iconic. What 60-degree slopes are to Mass Effect in general, narrow spiky roofs and starkly angular ornamentation are to Kirkwall and dwarves. It makes a kind of in-universe sense, given that dwarves did so much of the construction for Tevinter.

I think it adds to the sense of claustrophobia and paranoia that pervade Kirkwall. It was a slave pit, meant to herd human beings and isolate them from each other visually— there's a codex entry about it in Lowtown— and there's only so much that redecorating can really do to fix it.

The intention was good. Does get a little repetitive at times, but the different tiers give it a soaring quality which would be pretty cool if you could travel through it contiguously.

I don't think Amaranthine is poorly designed, if just small so there's probably some spacial compression going on there. It is a DLC after all. And the markets are right next to the main gate which works well as a tading hub, which is what it ultimately is. Its not Denerim, which is otherwise the capitol of Fereldan.

Orsamar, while having similar issues with Kirkwall, has things going for it that I feel make it more acceptable. First is that it feels big enough as a city in scope with lots of inaccessbale areas, but the level designs themselves give me a sense of spacial compression, especially when combined with the fact that you don't really spend much time there compared to the Deep Roads. It makes sense that I might not be seeing the city at a 1-1 ratio. Second is that, unlike Denerim and Kirkwall, the Dwarves don't do much in the way of trading. Or, at least not in the same way as on the surface. They seemingly don't need to account for cart traffic and merchants coming in and out of the city.

Val Royux... yeah, I have issues with that city. I like the idea they went for, but its not developed and you spend maybe 5 mins there when, logistcally, it should be a hell of a lot more important. But we never see what amounts to the Vatican or much except that one seemingly isolated square that has basically NOTHING in it. Bad Level design.

Kirkwall, I'd argue, doesn't have the same spacial compression. We're there all the time. It should be a 1-1 ratio. But I don't feel like the city could reasonably develop or change over time. You couldn't really even construct anything. I know, maybe the whole 'repurposed' and 'clausterphobic' thing is the point, but I think it swings too far to the degree that I just have a hard time believing that the city could even breathe under such strict and immutable design.

edited 1st Feb '18 9:40:40 PM by InkDagger

Skyhold can go fuck itself. I hate having to navigate it.

What's also upsetting about Skyhold is that a lot of places inside feel undeveloped. There's a whole Dwarven Hall and musty secret library that never get brought up ever.

There needed to be another battle like Haven at Skyhold where your decisions on what kind of building you upgraded mattered and also have a nice full team brawl with some of your agents as Guest-Star Party Member .

They could've just made the battle against the Fake-Archdemon take place there and then have them see Coryphues second attempt at opening the Rift in the distance.

edited 2nd Feb '18 1:13:10 AM by Kiefen

Before Trespasser DLC came out, I was hoping that Skyhold would get put under siege, you'd have to defend it and get the companions and leaders to safety. The sequence would end with the Qunari invading the burning great hall and you'd just hold out as long as you could until either the Qunari defeated you or the building comes down. The Inquisition burns and the Inqusitor with it.

Or, maybe your companions or Solas save you at last min. In Solas' case, a literal Deus Ex Machina but one where it'd serve a function. "Why'd you save me if you're just going to end me? End the world?! End everything?!" "Because this wasn't how your story was meant to end. You've saved your world and deserve to enjoy what you must for awhile longer. Your story should not end in the violence it began."

But, yeah, Skyhold needed to have MORE upgrades (possibly with you personally attending to structural clean up in the beginning to introduce you to every room before you could upgarde them) and then you had to put the upgrades to the test. The upgrades that are there... Not really working for the 'Siege of Skyhold' angle. And some of them are wierdly exclusive? Why can't I have both a medical ward and a training ring? Its not like they take up the same location...

See, that's the ending we all WANT in Bioware games - heroic last stands, the verge of tragedy, but The Power of Friendship comes in via close air support or mages kicking arse.

Citadel got that, which is why people felt that THAT was how the final bit of ME 3 should've gone. And yes, it'd have made better use of the Skyhold environment. The place seems laid out to fight through, with all its zones.

To be honest, a great business model would be to have the "hub" area and the map, then DLC zones to launch from. Hell, your "live" elements can be run from there easily and it's probably simpler to integrate all that stuff in. But EA seem to think live = multiplayer rather that community. Sorry sorry, stopping ranting.

BACK OT:

Regarding cities, I'm playing Seven Days Long Gone - and that game makes excellent use of the environment. It's an RPG / thief game. Isometric. BUT it has a fully vertical, 3d city where you can clamber up most things and find back alleys, sneak into houses; it really sells the city as a place - slums, docks, high end districts.

AND it's from an indie studio. If Bioware took that verticality (Which they dabbled with in Andromeda but never COMMITTED to) and applied it to another city-based game, like Kirkwall, it'd have been amazing.

Side note - if their Mass Effect game had done a Kirkwall and just focused on a ward in the Citadel, but with a jetpack and you being a merc, that could've been a cool little game...

I know Assassin's Creed isn't the greatest game to take notes from, but I feel like their level traversal would be something I'd like to see be incorperated into Dragon Age. At least when it comes to verticality and trying to find new options for exploring the world. Plus, AC knows how to transition between combat and explortation very quickly and with little fuss while Dragon Age won't let you run or anything from encounters unless everything is dead. Otherwise you slowly stomp away from the enemy who can easily follow your stomping and murder you.

If we're going to get stuck in a new city like Minrathus and we don't want it to wind up being a Kirkwall and we don't want it to be underdeveloped like Val Royux was, then I think maybe allowing more freedom of movement could give a good foothold in developing that city. The boots on the ground encounter works fine when out in the forrest or in a cave or something, but it feels tedious and strange how winding and poorly planned out city streets get when, well, a city can't function that way. Plus, if Leliana's spies and the Red Jennies and other people can runn atop roofs and sneak across the city without having a massive magic battle every 5 feet, wouldn't that pose a logical advantage compared to, well, blowing your cover with a magic battle every 5 feet? Like you do several times in the Ball questline? And 90% of DA 2?

EDIT:

Oh shit. I just found this.

"According to the Canticle of Exaltations, when the Maker has returned to the world, Minrathous will be the place where Andraste will forgive mankind's transgressions and restore the original harmony."

Remember my original idea about Andraste as a companion? Maybe Andraste could work in the land of Tevinter and, as a cool scene, she works through her angst about her image and identity being used to justify hundreds of years of bad stuff and let's go by quiet and solemly forgiving mankind for what they've done. It could be a really quiet 'Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane' scene and, rather than this big massive, 'SECOND COMING OF CHRIST! GOD FORGIVE THESE PEOPLE! THEY KNOEW NOT WHAT THEY'VE DONE!" that we'd all expect, its actually rather sad and inoccuous. You may not even realize that this Canticle Prophsey just occured, or even if it did occur.

edited 2nd Feb '18 3:22:26 AM by InkDagger

I was so disappointed in Val Royeaux. We'd heard about this amazing city for two games, and when we finally got there, we saw.... one city block. Over and over again. If they're going to keep playing up Minrathous as the equivalent of Constantinople, when/if we finally go there I want to actually get a chance to explore it!

edited 2nd Feb '18 5:45:56 AM by Tarlonniel

I feel like Val Royeaux would have been better if Bioware hadn't downsized the game for past gen consoles.

The guy who analyzes video game castles and stuff, Shadiversity, was quite positive towards Skyhold in terms of it's accuracy of design compared to real world castles (especially when he was critical of games like Skyrim and Witcher for their silly things) so it has that going for it.

I love Skyhold. It's a nicer place to explore than Undercity is in Wo W, or Windhelm is in Skyrim.

On the next game in the series and where it's going to be set in topic - well, it's fairly obvious it's going to be at least starting in Tevinter, given what happens at the end of Trespasser. There's a pissed-off Inquisitor wanting Solas' blood, or to redeem the bald elven nutjob, and they need to get allies from Tevinter in order to do that.

Whether or not it stays in Tevinter is open to question.

I liked Skyhold at first but eventually got bored of having to traverse it to talk to all of my people's. It's cool but it gets old.

The nice thing about the Camp in Origins was that you had everyone right there. There was a minimum of required wandering to do in order to check in and see how the team's doing.

I like Skyhold. I don't mind having to run around to talk to everyone but I wish 2/3 f the upgrades could provide better utility like the planting pot upgrade does.

Going back to the "What if Razikale ended up as a companion" topic, here are a few things I'm wondering:

• Since Razikale is the Dragon of Mystery, maybe you can gain approval points by expressing curiosity of the unknown?
• If we end up having another Grey Warden companion, what would their reaction be once they realize they're traveling with an untainted Old God?
• Would the first bit of foreshadowing of Razikale's true nature be the fact that any mission you can take her on is devoid of darkspawn?

Skyhold is awesome the very first time you reach it on your first playthrough. Then you realize that there's not much to do in the castle, and not that many people populating it. Because everyone's spread out in different parts, the sterility of the castle gets put into sharper relief. I much preferred being in Haven — that place feels much more lived-in.

I kind of want a hub level akin to the Pocket Dimension you get in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal.

Problem is, I have no idea how they would justify something like that in a Dragon Age game.

Some cool place in the Fade, maybe?

Not sure if that’s viable, but I think they could introduce some new elements to make it viable.

Fade pocket? How did that shop in DA 2 work, wasn't that a pocket dimension? (the emporium)

Bioware's not good at open-world stuff. Skyhold would've been better if there were some platformer-ish elements to it, and some secrets to find. Val Royeaux, too. But I guess they were too busy trying to produce enough content to justify the size of the other maps, which they only sort of did.

Not that I blame them, really. The kind of content they do is better suited to denser hubs, smaller, vignette-like encounters or missions, or branching (but not strictly open) dungeon levels. And none of those is a bad thing, either. I don't need, expect, or want every game to be Skyrim or The Witcher 3.

What about the Crossroads?

edited 2nd Feb '18 12:32:00 PM by Unsung

Hmm, the Crossroads...

Now I'm imagining that the PC somehow becomes "bonded" to an Eluvian shard charged with Blood Magic that can somehow speak for some reason, with the shard granting access to a part of the Crossroads.

Plot twist - that voice is actually the voice of one of the Elven Gods, tricking you into helping Solas.