The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

Tobias somes up my feelings as well. No metaphor is perfect, but a lot of right wingers spent a lot of time digging up dirt on shooting victims of police, your shooting victim isn't always going to be Charles Kinsey, because Humans Are Flawed. It does not matter that Nico wasn't wholly innocent, what matters is Walker murdered him.

I don't think he's saying that at all. I think he's saying no matter what Floyd was guilty of, he did not deserve to be murdered.

Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 18th 2021 at 8:58:31 AM

This is a weird thing to bring up right after dismissing Thanos as different.

Are you saying that Chauvin, a murderer is the same as George Floyd, a victim of murder?

There is a huge difference. One is a murderer.

Edit:

In any case, Walker was absoluetly wrong and a disgrace but I admit that if we saw Iron Man execute Zemo after the former killed Captain America then most of the audience would feel the same about someone who killed a comrade in arms. Things that yes have happened in wartime across history.

And its a tragedy and, yes, murder.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 18th 2021 at 6:03:41 AM

It's really not, considering that at that stage a) the Avengers aren't acting as representatives of any governing body, and b) the difference in scale of the Thanos situation is so hilariously large it honestly feels like you're being contrarian for the sake of it a little bit.

Thanos killed half the universe. Literally everywhere is in disarray, and everywhere has a reason to claim jurisdiction. Like. Trying to draw any kind of comparison between the Avengers killing Thanos and Walker killing Nico is a phenomenally bad take.

Edited by Khfan429 on Apr 18th 2021 at 6:06:45 AM

Edit:

You know you're right. Screw Walker. He's a bad guy who crossed the Moral Event Horizon.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 18th 2021 at 6:10:25 AM

EDIT: No longer relevant.

Edited by Galadriel on Apr 18th 2021 at 9:13:26 AM

John Walker is ultimately a product of the US government's meddling. The real tragedy is that the government simply refuses to owe up to its mistakes, both past and present. They want a Captain America under their thumb without understanding the words of Dr. Erskine.

Anyways, on another topic, who do you think is the Power Broker?

I think I've said it before, and I'll say it again: IT'S BEEN AGATHA ALL ALONG~~!!

Well, there's always after credits scene.

Edited by jouXIII on Apr 18th 2021 at 4:37:17 PM

I feel like it has to be Sharon. She's the only one with sufficient foreshadowing, though they could get away with Zola—and honestly I'd prefer him.

Other than those two, it has to be someone we haven't encountered yet, in which case we might not even find out his identity in this series.

If it's not Sharon, then it's likely Valentina, since the question is why Sharon is aiding the Flagsmasher cause while also hiring bounty hunters to punish them for stealing serum.

Posting this just cuz it's funny.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 18th 2021 at 6:42:10 AM

I'm guessing Power Broker will just be a Sequel Hook. I don't think they have enough time to properly deal with that by now. There's a fairly considerable four way thematic and physical melee to go on involving the GRC, Walker, Flagsmashers and our heroes. Maybe even the US army proper as a fifth angle. There's a lot to unpack, plus Bucky has a unresolved plotline with Yori that will probably be Hell to deal with.

Think Power Broker on top of it would be a touch too much and even Sharon being Power Broker (at a surface level, the simplest bit) is a fairly convoluted turn of events because it means she's a Double Reverse Quadruple Agent of Revolver Ocelot levels, having set a bounty on sam and bucky to engineer their rescue all the while putting herself in mortal peril, while also working for the Flagsmashers and providing them with resources while somehow also trying to capture them. It's a laughably convoluted Gambit Roulette when you think about it.

The simpler solution would be a post-credits scene with Power Broker being revealed, whoever he may be. I favor Zola but I imagine it's a character who hasn't shown up in this show either way, be it a returning face from elsewhere or a wholly new character.

Edited by Gaon on Apr 18th 2021 at 7:05:01 AM

Which show would be the more fitting to show that guy's identity and fall? At least of the ones we know are in line.

Out of all the miniseries out there this one seems like the one with the most capacity for a second season IMO. I know Sebastian Stan has said he would be interested in a theoretical second season, and I think Mackie deconfirmed that one was already in development, but was otherwise interested in the idea. The show has been doing reasonably well in ratings, so there's no reason not to.

Having the Power Broker be revealed as Zola in an after-credits scene would probably be a fun idea.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 18th 2021 at 11:35:09 AM

One theory I've kicked over is the possibility that the Power Broker is The (Real, Real) Mandarin.

I'm basing this partly on the apparent delay of the Shang Chi trailer being shown (incidentally I've seen rumors that it's coming tomorrow, which would kind of go against this), but also on the idea that this would be a good way to introduce The Mandarin in advance of that movie.

Also, while there aren't a lot of Asians around in the show, Madrapoor is in South East Asia.

Super weird that we don't see a single Asian person in Madripoor, iirc.

I agree that this show (unlike Wandavision, which always seemed like a experimental flash in the pan) has a lot of potential for season 2, and I desperately want there to be one. The exploration of sociopolitics and racial realities has a lot more room to breathe in this structure, and the series will basically end with Falcon becoming Cap (one presumes). There's a lot more to do and I favour 5 hours (the rough runtime of this season combined) to 2 (an average MCU film) to grapple with it.

Going back to movies would almost feel like a downgrade to me. So ideally I'd deal with the Power Broker just in a season 2.

I wouldn't want the Mandarin because I think Shang-Chi is likely to be a bust. Put 0 faith in that project.

Maybe Madripoor settled the Firefly verse.

I also expect the Power Broker to be a sequel hook. It seems clear at this point that Sharon is not the Power Broker, nor is she working for the Power Broker; she's a Flag-Smasher. That suitably answers all the dangling suspicions surrounding her.

Of course, the fact that she's in Madripoor still is interesting; if she doesn't come to New York for this attack, then that deprives Sam and Bucky of the opportunity to find out that she's a Flag-Smasher. But they have to find that out, or else what was the point of using Sharon for the role that Insert Rando Character could have filled instead?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 18th 2021 at 7:33:09 AM

I believe this will have Batroc turn on Karli at the last moment or grab her to take her blood.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 18th 2021 at 7:37:50 AM

Supposedly one of the issues with getting Sharon more screentime on this series was that her actress has obligations on other shows, which also makes me think it's unlikely she's the Power Broker as opposed to just a powerful subordinate giving aid to the Flagsmashers.

I'm curious what exactly what Batroc brought to the table here to battle Sam.

Somewhat unclear what was in the brief case, it can't just be guns.

Guns and combat expertise. The Flagsmashers are superhuman but the show has hammered pretty heavily they're mostly random people with little to no combat experience way over their heads, Strong, but Unskilled types. Batroc the Leaper is a guy who made his bones conducting highly technical black-ops hijackings. He increases their combat finnesse by leaps and bounds.

He was also (if only briefly) able to give Steve a fight.

So he's got some experience with Super Soldiers (which makes him useful against Bucky and Walker—even if they don't know about the latter), and he's dealt with Sam as well, so that's another bit of experience.

His usefulness as muscle (despite not being a supersoldier himself) will give the Smasher a big advantage

Or it would have, if not for the fact that his knowledge of how Sam fights is going to be a bit out of date once Falcon America takes the field, but hey, it was a good plan in practice.

Yeah, I think that Emily Van Camp can't be Sharon Carter so she'll be the Power Broker to wrap up her character arc in the MCU.

I'm still not convinced that she's gonna be the Power Broker. I agree that the Power Broker is probably gonna be a Sequel Hook, and yeah, I do hope this show gets a second season. There's still a lot more that could be done with a second season as opposed to in the movies.

I'm not sure Marvel is planning to have seasons. The impression I've gotten from their shows is that each one is meant to be a miniseries. We may see Sam, Bucky, Joaquin, Sharon, etc. again in the MCU's future, possibly independently or possible together, but it might not specifically be in "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier: Season Two".

In fact, if this concludes the way we all expect it to with Sam formally taking on the moniker of the new Captain America, it may not be appropriate to keep insisting on calling him Falcon in the show title. Maybe in a few years we'll be watching Captain America and the Winter Soldier. Or Captain America and the Falcon if Joaquin takes up a wingsuit. Or something.

This show gives me the impression that, like one of the movies, it's continuing the story of its characters but it means to wrap the story it's telling up in the end, with any dangling plot points being hooks for future movies/shows to deal with. I don't think they're laying the groundwork for a premise where we'll still be here in several years watching Sam and Bucky buddy-cop supervillains into oblivion for Season Eight or something. I don't think Marvel wants to commit to coming back to this exact set of characters and this exact set of themes (or any) for an extended period of time.

Note that this is pretty much how the comics work too. There are a few long-runners grandfathered in because they were created by Stan Lee and are on issue 500 or some shit, but for the most part, Marvel series tend to run for like 6-24 issues and then the character will relaunch with a new writer, new supporting cast, new set of problems, etc. Which does also happen in the long-runners as well; they just don't always reset the numbering, and when they do, they inevitably wind up going back to it. The age of having one creative team in charge of the same series for several decades ended a long time ago.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 18th 2021 at 8:49:03 AM