The Antisemitism Thread

Geez I dislike that Wikipedia uses the phrase 'Arab-Palestinians', since that phrase is itself anti-Semitic.

Since, you know, Palestinians are the descendants of those natives of Israel-Judea who did not leave during the diaspora in Roman times and they are therefore Semites just the same as the descendants of those who did leave during the diaspore.

Many of them became Arabized (that is to say: adopting Arabic as their primary language and adopting Arabic customs and culture) and even converted to Islam, when the area was conquered by Muslims centuries later, but that doesn't make them Arab.

The notion that Palestinians are Arabs is generally spread mainly by the Israeli far right as justification for kicking Palestinians off the land their ancestors have lived on since pretty much biblical times.

(Granted: Not all Palestinians are the descendants of Ethnic Jews native to the region, some are the descendants of Philistines and Samaritans, but both of those are also both Semitic and native to the regions still).

I mean that whole thing is complicated. I remember reading somewhere that when Jews wanted to reclaim Israel some Arabs supported them as Arabs reclaiming their homeland. That changed very quickly, but the fact that it was even their at the start is indicative of how fluid those identifiers can be.

It doesn't help that the actual word 'Arab' means 'wanderer' or 'traveler' and was originally used by Semitic speakers (so Judeans, Israelites, Canaanites, Samaritans, Philistines and the various tribes we now call Arabs) for both each other (when they were visiting) and for Bedouins (who live and travel all over North Africa, the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula) and is therefore kind of appropriate for diasporic Jews.

Considering the history section of the site starts like this

never mentions the unwillingness of the other side to accept peaceoffers and calls for the unlimited right of return does indicate that they are not acting in good faith.

Edited by Zarastro on Nov 24th 2020 at 9:01:40 PM

Because conflating the two topics never fails to turn things toxic: we have an Israel-Palestine thread, btw.

Good call.

Also, just for the record, the reason why the term antisemitism doesn't "apply" to non-Jewish "Semites" (i.e. Arabs and/or Palestinians) is not because of Jewish prejudice against those groups and/or some kind of conspiracy to deny its applicability to them.

Rather, it's because of its origins in 19th century Germany to either indicate opposition to racial prejudice against Jews or (as popularized by Wilhelm Marr) a nicer-sounding way to refer to one's hatred of Jews.

Incidentally, I learned that it's because of the latter that there's been a recent push to spell it as "antisemitism" instead of "anti-Semitism". Basically, Marr intended it to mean opposing "Semitism", which he intended to mean as malign Jewish influence. So removing the dash rejects that framing.

But I find the whole talking point about how Israel's actions are the "real antisemitism" to be pretty annoying. It's not much different than quibbling about the definition of homophobia on the basis that one isn't "afraid" of gay people.

Edited by Hodor2 on Nov 24th 2020 at 11:43:14 AM

Yeah, I've pretty much never heard the whole 'I can't be anti-semitic, Arabs are Semites too!' argument being made in good faith.

Yeah it feels about as valid an argument as someone say they can’t be prejudice against third-world countries, because they’re from Austria (third-world under the Cold War usage of the term).

I do have to say in fairness that my understanding is that while Robrecht is asserting that "Palestinians are the real Semites and Israel/Jews engaging in antisemtiism against them" (kind of an iffy talking point) Robrecht isn't asserting that Jews are "fake Semites" (generally the other thing that comes up as part of that talking point).

Plenty of people have immigrated to the geographic area of Palestine over the centuries. This idea that all are the descendants of the people who were living there 2,000 or or 3,000 years ago is a fallacy. Every conquest brought new arrivals, and there were those who arrived during more peaceful times as well. Some Palestinians are descendants of Jewish or Christian inhabitants who converted to Islam in the 7th century. How many is probably not a question anyone can answer at this point. But all of them? That would require ignoring 2,000 years of immigration and emigration. The Philistines also haven't existed for about 2,500 years and the Samaritans still exist today. The possibility exists that there are Palestinians who are descended from certain Samaritans who converted to Islam - in fact there seems to be a strong consensus that the population of Nablus are descendants of Samaritans - but the Philistines disappeared as a people about 1,000 years before Islam and have no known descendants today.

Edited by uncannybeetle on Nov 24th 2020 at 11:45:16 AM

I would like to point out that I was not, in fact, doing that at all. I was simply pointing out that 'Palestinians' and those who left during the Roman Diaspora ultimately come from the same ancestry.

Thank you, by the way, for correcting the preferred spelling of antisemitism, I'll keep that in mind in future.

Edit:

Sure, not all Palestinians are the descendants of people who lived in the Kingdom of Israël and Judea pre-Roman occupation...

Not all people who consider themselves Ashkenazim or Sephardim are the descendants of Jews who left there during the Diaspora either. Some of them are the descendants of Europeans who converted. Some of them are the descendants people who had affairs with gentiles or of gentile children adopted by Jewish couples. If they're living in Israel and their family immigrated in the late 40's and 50's, there's, like, a non-zero chance that they have no Jewish ancestry whatsoever and are instead the descendants some of the many Eastern European concentration camp survivors who were imprisoned for being LGBT or Rroma, but told the Soviets that they were Jewish because it was a lot safer than admitting the truth.

Any Palestinian whose ancestors had been living in the area for more than three generations is almost guaranteed to be a descendant of natives through at least one of their parents.

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 24th 2020 at 12:17:52 PM

Judging by DNA tests most Ashkenazi Jews have Eastern European DNA and Diaspora DNA. There was tons of crossover, some of it willing and a lot of it not. Like for example you state that their possibly descended from converts. There's a very high chance that if you're descended from some converts you also have non-converts in your family tree somewhere. Just as you say " If they're living in Israel and their family immigrated in the late 40's and 50's" then just generationally they probably Jewish ancestry given how low interfaith marriages are in Israel.

Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 24th 2020 at 10:01:02 AM

True. My point, after all, wasn't that the members of the Diaspora are 'not real Jews'.

I had no idea that this was the correct way to spell it either.

Maybe a mod can edit the title?

Edited by Forenperser on Nov 25th 2020 at 12:04:13 PM

Jewish groups seem to have settled on 'antisemitism' without the hyphen as the spelling in the last couple of decades specifically to counter the 'Arabs are also Semites' argument and ensure that its historical definition remains the same.

Roald Dahl's family apologises for his antisemitism.

I didn't even know he was one. Just goes to show you how common it was back then. What a shame.

An Anne Frank memorial in Idaho was vandalized with Swastika stickers displaying the message, "We are everywhere."

Haven't gotten around to ordering yet, but anyone else read The ISGAP Papers on antisemitism?

Miss France Runner-Up Becomes Target of Anti-Semitic Tweets

Interesting opinion piece on the apparent rise of Antisemitism in Michigan particularly, and how to combat it

https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/contributors/2020/12/23/lopatin-herrin-antisemitism-rise-michigan/6480346002/

"Of the 1,715 religious-based incidents, 60.2% targeted Jews, who make up less than 2% of the country’s population. This is four-and-a-half times more than hate crimes committed against the next most-targeted community, those of the Muslim faith, at 13.2%. The report also showed that hate incidents targeting Jews were up 14% compared to the prior year."

Wow, that is surprising. Bear in mind these are reported crimes, and muslim residents are probably less likely to report these kinds of things to the police (esp. considering the events of the last four years), so the actual rate is probably a little closer to each other. Still.

NBC pulls an Episode of 'Nurses' after heavy backlash due to perceived antisemitic portrayal of Orthodox Jews

https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/nbc-pulls-nurses-episode-over-accusations-of-anti-semitism/

Just saw that Greg Abbott, in a rare Stopped Clock-Moment, denounced Gab as an antisemitic Hate Platform

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wx8334/texas-gov-abbott-calls-gab-antisemitic-maybe-he-should-tell-his-own-party

He was torn to shreds by his own camp, of course

Edited by Forenperser on Mar 14th 2021 at 1:26:34 PM

Thought I'd crosspost this here as well. Infamous British Holocaust denier Alison Chabloz, who wrote numerous antisemitic songs to boot, was jailed

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-56616838