Fire Emblem Three Houses (Spoiler Thread)

Fair enough (and also why it's probably not a good idea to look at the global support library before finishing White Clouds). I guess my issue with this is more that her route never really portrays her views as being wrong?

Like, Claude's route is about how Fodlan being so isolated from the rest of the world is not a good thing, which is a very good reason to do something about Rhea. On Dimitri's route, it's made blatantly clear that Faerghus was not justified in destroying Duscur (doesn't help that they clearly weren't even sparing children, as they still almost killed Dedue who was 15 or so).

El's route is about Evil Dragons(tm). I'm mostly joking, but Rhea's treatment there is really uncomfortable. Also, Seteth pretty much had enough of Rhea's crap and could've been an ally if he and Flayn weren't rejected for not being human. He has little issue helping Byleth perform a Mercy Kill on Rhea in Silver Snow's finale, after all.

That's why i mused that Flayn being on the Black Eagles house could lead to interesting story telling opportunities since Edelgard has had chances to talk to Flayn and gauge her character.

Edelgard's story and conflict with Rhea feels less about the dragons and more about the divinity personally. I always felt Edelgard and Rhea on CF mirror Lucifer and YHVH or Satan in SMT 2, it helps Edelgard wears devil armor.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 28th 2020 at 9:17:02 AM

Caellach: That's true, I was just hoping to get some new insight into Edelgard, but it never happens.

I don't see Flayn or Seteth fighting against Rhea, but I do think the entire conflict could have been avoided had Edelgard just chatted with Claude or Seteth for a few minutes, or maybe reached out to Rhea to try and understand why she did what she did rather than immediately leap into trying to kill her.^note  Edelstans use this exact phrasing with the names reversed to justify why Rhea is evil after the Holy Tomb incident. My own use of this phrasing is intentional. Heck, apart from the whole "No more dragons!" and "The Church of Seiros is evil (but other religions are fine!" things, I don't get the impression Rhea would have any objections to the changes Edelgard wants to implement.

Actually, let's imagine what would have happened had Edelgard decided to dramatically defy the Church with words.

Edelgard: I hereby declare that Crests will have no bearing on inheritance! What say you, Archbishop?!
Rhea: Oh, that's a good idea.
Seteth: Yes, I'm sure that will cut down on people abusing their gifts.
Edelgard: Why you... wait, what?
Seteth: I have long felt that society places far too much emphasis on Crests and not on individuals' character.
Edelgard: But... but... the Church teaches that Crest-bearers are superior...
Rhea: You are mistaken, Emperor. Crests are a gift from the Goddess and it is a sin to misuse them, but we have never taught that having a Crest makes one superior.
Edelgard: Uh... well... I also declare that positions of authority will be awarded on the basis of merit, and not birth!
Seteth: I like that idea.
Rhea: As do I. Edelgard, I do not know of any Emperor since Wilhelm I who aimed to help the people so much. I shall order the clergy to promulgate your ideas through their sermons.
Dimitri: Speaking of merit, I have this idea for a government system in which commoners can actively participate.
Claude: Also, how do you feel about open borders?

Fire Emblem solving it's plot with diplomacy? Perish the thought. Imagine if Lyon's dad asked for aid for Grado's upcoming disasters, or Rudolf using his resources to fight Duma and the fateful instead of a complicated plan of having Alm kill him, or Walhart asking Chrom to team up to defeat the Grimleal.

Damn these Emperor types really suck at communication.

The reason Seteth and Flayn don't join you isn't because "they're refused", it's because despite their misgivings with Rhea they still consider the empire to be way worse.

Also Ingrid's and Seteth's support has Ingrid outright surprised that someone who is devoted to the Goddess would have mixed feelings on Crests.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Mar 28th 2020 at 6:08:52 PM

Seteth may be a cool guy and all, but he really doesn't do much to reform the system despite being well aware of the flaws. Nor does he make his feelings apparent hence Felix and Ingrid's shock. It's a realistic flaw in that the system has good people but they don't do much to actively change things which is why people don't trust authority much these days.

He is good at keeping the system funded, censoring books and helping to cover up the Church's lies. Whoops.

Seteth is unwilling to confront Rhea on her unethical messiah project in Byleth among others and weakly accepts the contradicting explanation and being aware of the fact that it is pretty bad. Hence his line about not being able to turn back, that's a problem i had with him on SS.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:15:46 AM

Edelgard insists that violence is the only way to achieve her goals, but she never offers any reason to think as much. She made all of her decisions before she met or knew anybody at Garreg Mach

Part of the reason I keep saying the narrative has a clear preference for Edelgard is that she's always portrayed in a way meant to inspire sympathy. All of her death scenes are treated as tragic, with the credit theme being sung from her perspective about how lonely she is and how she needed you to support her.

When Rhea is the villain, she's a one-dimensional Hate Sink with no attempt to make her look any more complicated. If they wanted the character to be remotely sympathetic, then writing her that way makes no sense. VW has Claude openly despising her and SS has her turn into a feral monster just so she dies at the end.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:13:23 AM

Say what, that's a lie. Claude wants to get answers from her but he's never hateful of her much less even disrespectful on VW.

Also, Red Hunter, the reason Edelgard doesn't support with Flayn is that Edelgard knows she's not human by that point. So it's Edelgard who's not willing to reach out.

Edited by Watashiwa on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:24:06 AM

As i noted, the Emperor types in Fire Emblem never try diplomacy, like ever and instead go the more complicated route.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvd5ETrG04w

I found this gem of Edelgard trying to comfort Byleth after Jeralt dies.

She's not though. AM doesn't portray her sympathetically in the least. She has a bittersweet death scene, but the entire route long, she's this distant, cold figure who refuses to compromise. That doesn't inspire sympathy. We get a single scene with her rallying her troops for her cause, and then after that, she's always the antagonist trying to conquer the rest of the continent.

Dimitri, her worst enemy for most of the route, offers her some measure of forgiveness and compromise, and she outright rejects it. Her stabs her, they turn and walk away, and the rest of the ending is purely happy and idealistic.

It's a "we could have been friends again" moment, not a "poor Edelgard, feel sorry for her" moment.

Plus Female Byleth like pulls Dimitri away from Edelgard that's basically " Forget about her ".

Much to the shipper's joy.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:26:46 AM

https://youtu.be/656zyGFGGjA?t=2386

https://youtu.be/-K9AzkfwBRw?t=50

https://youtu.be/S5lEIXtKvtg?t=1520

https://youtu.be/CTr3luzt0D4?t=16

Could probably link more examples if I wanted to.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Mar 28th 2020 at 6:54:44 PM

MrTambourineMan: And that gets to the core of my disappointment with Crimson Flower. We don't know why she made those decisions! Crimson Flower should have gone into Edelgard's backstory and shown why she thought it would be a good idea to team up with the underground Nazis who imprisoned and tortured her to their own ends, but it doesn't. We're just supposed to accept that Rhea being a dragon is a good enough reason and go along with it.

And before anyone says it, "But she needs the help of the underground Nazis to overthrow the Church" doesn't explain anything about Edelgard's character. Look at her intense, visceral hatred for Thales and his friends over what they did to her, and what they did in Duscur. I want to know what drove Edelgard to hate the Church so much that she would even give those cunts the time of day, let along actively cooperate with them in military action, assassination, kidnapping, terrorism, and forcibly doing to multiple people that thing everyone complains Rhea was going to do to Byleth except Edelgard doesn't appear to grant her own monsters free will. This is a meaty issue that would cast a new light on everything if it was explored, but no, all we get is "Dragons are bad because I said so."

EDIT: The Empress in the Tellius games is sympathetic and willing to use diplomacy. And Radiant Dawn even manages to put our sympathies with the aggressors when the Laguz Alliance attacks the empire. Man the Tellius games have good storytelling.

Edited by VampireBuddha on Mar 28th 2020 at 5:36:11 PM

She doesn't hate the Church, she views them as an obstacle. Her conflict with the Church is more ideology than personal. She wants to change Fodlan, and the Church is the biggest cog in the machine at best. It is abundantly clear throughout CF, that Arundel is a looming threat that surpasses Rhea in terms of evil. Edelgard is after revolution, Dimitri is the lord motivated by REVENGE!!!!!!

I noted that the Agarthans for all their manipulations and power are still powerless terrorists, while Rhea and the Church is the status quo.

Batman can arrest Joker as much as he wants, but to improve Gotham, he's have to tackle the corrupt government as an example.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:40:59 AM

Also lol, didn't see you edited your post for that "interesting" take on SS. Weren't you complaining that her death on CF was too unsympathetic. Well on this route she's literally forced to fight you against her will, there's constant sad music playing, tons of characters are horrified at what's happened to her and then we get this scene. Oh also she doesn't have to die and if you save her you can have her apologize to you and then lead Fodlan into a golden age.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Mar 28th 2020 at 6:40:36 PM

So why is she working with Thales?

I know some people complained about Path of Radiance being too heavy-handed with its anti-racism, but it really doesn't sit well with me that Three Houses treats it like a legitimate perspective to take.

Seriously, do you just have it in for me or something?

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:41:48 AM

Because it's easier to get rid of him after defeating her other enemies than trying to take on the kingdom, church and alliance after surviving a civil war.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Mar 28th 2020 at 6:39:35 PM

Well it was Hubert's idea. But if i had to guess myself, and thanks to FF XIV Heavensward replaying, Edelgard teaming up with Thales is an attempt at trying to obtain Agarthan magic and tech which is hinted at during the finale, as well as a way to keep tabs on the Agarthans, like Edelgard knew Cornelia was a plant for example.

So if she doesn't team up with Thales, either she fights both Thales and the Church, or Thales leaves and she has no leads on him and the Agarthans.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:40:53 AM

To be fair, Sanaki was locked in a battle with her corrupt senators, who basically wanted her to be a figurehead and nothing else and were constantly doing questionable shit outside of her jurisdiction. The other Emperors in the series have been full in their power.

Tellius does have some great writing, though. Not arguing that at all.

It's a fight with no reason to be in the story but to have Rhea die.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Mar 28th 2020 at 10:43:42 AM

I find it interesting that Sanaki is referred to as an Empress and she's an ally, while Edelgard is called an Emperor to highlight her similarities to the Rudolfs, Arvis in particular.

The event's Ass Pull setup aside, Rhea's death in Silver Snow's endgame is still portrayed as tragic (and unlike on Crimson Flower, she dies in her human form).

And, interestingly, El's death on Azure Moon can be seen as a parallel to that, as despite Hubert's dialogue suggesting that her transformation might be irreversible, she regains her normal appearance before Dimitri kills her.

And both cases clearly only have the transformation happen just so you have a cool boss to fight. Hmmm...

Rhea is Alolan Edelgard confirmed.