Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (spoilers obviously)

They made all the right moves for the game they thought they were playing. They had no way of knowing that the game was so large that what they thought were the entire stakes of the conflict was just a move by their opponent.

They made mistakes - their handling of the whole Sifo Dyas situation for example - but most of the big catastrophic things that ensured their downfall were out of their hands. They couldn't have stopped the Republic from using the clone army. They couldn't have stopped the Republic from continuing and escalating the war. And sitting out the war - even without knowing what was truly going on - could have had much worse effects than fighting from their point of view.

Heck, the Jedi's fate was sealed way back when they became so entrenched with the Republic that bureaucracy's will became their command.

TBF, the Jedi were kind of suspicious about how a clone army was conveniently ready for the Republic, but by that point they kind of didn't have any other options.

And in both canon and the old EU, there were times when Palpatine's scheme was almost exposed. Sure it didn't happen since it was Doomed by Canon, but it does show that Palpatine had to work to keep everything from falling apart.

One EU comic for example had a couple Jedi coming up with the idea of testing all of the Senators for midichlorians to see if they were Force-users. Unfortunately, they confided this plan to...Palpatine.

Edited by M84 on Oct 26th 2020 at 2:05:50 AM

The Jedi got enough evidence to seriously suspect that something was seriously wrong with the Clone Army, and that Count Dooku himself had a hand in it, then proceeded to keep all that information entirely to themselves without telling anyone on the assumption that they could handle the investigation themselves (and even then, only certain Jedi) - that is, they tabled the issue and promptly forgot about it. Leading to preventable disasters like a clone finding out that there's something seriously wrong with their biology that could turn them violent and everyone just failing to listen on the assumption that said clone was nuts.

It's imo the only really big pitfall in the war that's more on the Jedi's shoulders. The Republic was likely too reliant on the clones by that point to stop using them, but they would still have been forewarned that something was up. The Jedi's desire to keep things internal and not share what they deem to be "Jedi matters" worked against them.

A lot of Sidious' plan took advantage of both the Jedi's willingness to just do whatever the Republic needed them to, while also remaining insular and not sharing anything about themselves with others. Since his end plan was to make them all look like shady warmongers, it was child's play.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 25th 2020 at 11:11:52 AM

It didn't help that the Jedi despite their goal of defending democracy didn't really trust politicians in general. Hence why they kept so much to themselves.

There's probably a lesson there about how treating all politicians as bad ultimately just plays into the hands of the actually bad politicians.

Edited by M84 on Oct 26th 2020 at 2:14:34 AM

I recall Obi-Wan even asserting "[Padme]'s a politician" to Anakin to admonish him to not trust her, when in actuality Padme is among the most moral characters in the series.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 26th 2020 at 12:27:53 PM

Though tbf, the way he says it makes it seem like he was just joking.

Prequel era Obi-Wan is 90% sarcasm, anyway.

On the Ahsoka argument a few pages back: One can easily chalk her victory against Maul up due to the environmental factor, after she later lunged at him on the Star Destroyer, he was able to push her back with the Force alone.

As for her fight against Vader, honestly, as cool as it was, for like 90% of the fight she was on the defensive and constantly losing ground. The only good hit she was able to score was when he had his back turned. Vader was also somewhat emotionally divided. And yeah, she would definitely have died, had Ezra not time-travelled her outta there.

Edited by Forenperser on Oct 26th 2020 at 1:05:29 PM

One of the things that really bit the Jedi in the ass is that for all that they are the protectors of the Republic they aren't really a part of the Republic. As in they are connected to the republic on a official level but on a more personal level they are more like that thing over there, the "Other", to many people which could be considered part of the reason it was so easy to Palpatine to demonize them.

That was a product of the Ruusan Reformations. The Jedi originally were a separate body from the rest of the Republic, but after that war where they formed a huge army (and prior to that had been basically ruling parts of the galaxy as independent fiefs due to a lack of Republic authority), they were brought under the fold of the Judicial Corps, thus making them part of the Republic and thus unable to just sit by and let things play out.

Yeah part of palpatine strategy was to in a way put the jedi in a moral dilema: ether they sit back and let the war roll(palpatine win) or compromised more and more with a corrupt republic(palpatine wins), the second is kinda was pal used to corrupt anakin as the jedi keep fighting and fighting and it see the war never really enrds.

The clone wars as the novelization put it eloquently are the revenge of the Sith. It allows them to place the jedi in an unwinnable position and bring about their near end.

Granted the movie is revenge of the sith because "Palpatine own everyone for nearly two hours" would be to long

Wonder if Windu acting as if he left the order and went rogue and sending Anakin into some real, if distant assignment would have been a better idea.

What really sealed their fates was the decision to send Obi-Wan to deal with Grievous. It's pretty obvious that if Obi-Wan had been on Coruscant, Anakin wouldn't have turned. Palpatine knew this, having seen Anakin refuse to abandon Obi-Wan in the beginning of the movie. Hence why he subtly goaded the Jedi Council into sending Obi-Wan away.

One day I will write the AU where instead of sending Anakin to brood in the Council Room, Mace sends Anakin to convince Padme to make their arrest of Palpatine legit.

I also remember Dave Filoni at one point talking about how some Jedi are kinda excited about the war, since it's a war against the Sith and how it feels like destiny and the Will of the Force that they fight at first

"What really sealed their fates was the decision to send Obi-Wan to deal with Grievous."

Especially if we consider that thanks to the Adaptational Wimp, we now know that Kit Fisto could have done that job.

And thanks to Obi having more experience fighting the Sith, he could have endured the Sidious' "Force scream" and wouldn't have died in 5 seconds.

Fisto and Obi would have been more helpful if they had switched tasks.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Oct 27th 2020 at 11:55:03 AM

To be fair, it was retconned that Kit Fisto was sent to deal with Grevious earlier in the war and came up empty-handed.

There's a bit of Characterization Marches On there too. A lot of the development that put Kit Fisto as one of the most skilled and learned Jedi in the Order happened after Revenge of the Sith - part of Star Wars' typical expansion of characters with smaller roles. Whereas at first Fisto was just one in the sea (no pun intended) of minor Rubber-Forehead Alien Jedi who popped up in crowd scenes here and there, now he's the most high profile Jedi in that fight after Mace himself.

I've always figured that if the movie had been made with that development already in place, Fisto - while obviously not won or anything - at least would been choreographed with more than just a couple blocked shots before dying. If anything, I figure if Fisto were the character then that he is now, he probably would've been moved to Order 66 and given a more dramatic death by clone.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 27th 2020 at 1:21:14 AM

Kit Fisto in Episode II: *smiles once*

EU: "His thing is being the guy who smiles all the time."

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 27th 2020 at 1:36:27 AM

But the smile about how much he loves the fight was just eye catching. Turning him into a pretty jovial dude was a great idea.

Yeah, of all the character exaggeration in Star Wars, Kit Fisto becoming the smiley guy is silly but at least isn't stupid. There's been some seriously stupid character exaggerations in this series sometimes.

Also, afair, this comic panel actually preceeds Episode 3.

Palpy's stomping of the Jedi team is a bit of a fight scene failure since well two of them are suppose to be dead before they even know Palpy's moved but well.

The funny thing about the end of the war is Palpy kinda needed the Jedi to try an coup him. Hence the GG dilemma

Ironically the Worst thing the Jedi could have done was do as Palpy suggested, Send Anakin to deal with GG,

Hence Why its the option Palpy puts forth cause he knows the Jedi will contrary him out of suspicious or just plain spite that he is attempting to give them orders

but if they had... Palpy would be kinda in dilema.... If the war is over and this turns into a are you now gonna surrender your powers thing. He can't whip the public support. He needs someone to try to oust him from power

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Oct 27th 2020 at 5:47:37 AM

Yeah umh. It works great in the novel. Not so much in love action. I think some slo mo should have Been used for the effects