Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (spoilers obviously)

Bioware

I get the feeling KOTOR hates Star Wars and Jedi

Anyway, with all the girlfriends that Obi Wan apparently had Jedi are allowed to form attachments at least until they take their vows as an actual adult and that’s less bad than I was assuming things were

Anakin hadn’t taken his vows in AOTC. If he wanted to marry Padme, he coulda. (I mean he did but I’m winding up to something)

But he wanted to marry Padme and also be a Jedi. Every other Jedi except that tall headed guy were living by the oaths but Anakin felt entitled to have his cake and eat it too

x4 I always figured that the Jedi were supposed to be portrayed as well meaning and good, but having allowed arrogance to hinder their ability to see any point of view but their own. sort of a 'We defeated the Sith, so the way we do things is best, and any disagreement is wrong.' type of thing, the way a lot of real-life highly successful groups behave. They can't see the flaws in their behavior because they live in the Jedi bubble and rationalize them away with 'tradition.'

People like to turn the 'stuffy and tradition bound' thing into 'cold, unfeeling robots' because the discourse has warped 'having flaws' into 'being evil.'

Edited by Krory21 on Jan 20th 2020 at 8:28:42 AM

I mean thats the Closed Fist analogy, Anakin gripped so tight, he crushed the things he wanted to protect

If Padme' was the most important thing to him... Saving her life should be more important than being a Jedi, admit what you've done and Yoda would have been more able to help you.

If being a Jedi is more important, accept that Padme's death is a natural event and the Force has granted you a chance to prepare for it instead of being taken by surprise

Anakin does neither, He goes to the person who offers both... and ends up makes him lose EVERYTHING... Sith never give... They only take.

Revenge has Yoda note that the younger generations of jedi like Obi-Wan's and Anakin's are more and more getting away from the old doctrine... like Qui-gon

The Film is trying to say that yes the Jedi have become stagnant but like all long establishments goes through changes but also show not ALL the Jedi are like that. Some cling to the Holier then thou thing... others like Kit are pretty much live and let live

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Jan 20th 2020 at 10:35:12 AM

I will said an issue with jedi flaws is that they are so vague it could be everything: dogmatic?, or that they participate in the war? to cold? what?.

luke is right to critize the jedi order but on what is neverreally said.

"Goku fucks up with his son one time and immediately realizes he did wrong, He's a shit father FOREVER "

To be fair, part of that is goku somewhat bumbling nature make one question how the hell he is a father to being with, and the nature of that fuck up is pretty damn strong: he half ass traing on the idea of using gohan super sayian 2 as trump card, expecting gohan to love battle like he did, which giving gohan age should reaaaaaally tell you is not the case, as result he is trash by cell and 16 dies as result.

but to center this on topic, the jedi are rarely show as wrong, even when some pratice like taking padawan when they are kid can be see as....questionable and them the narrative tell you why is the right thing, so there is a sort of "the jedi are never wrong, except when they are"

in fact, if rey create another order it make me ask how the hell she is going to make better what luke could not.

Again Goku fucks up once, and yall won't forgive him

Vegeta fucks up consistently and its " Awww but he is trying his best" except he isn't trying... at all

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Jan 20th 2020 at 10:41:49 AM

It’s cool. I have never considered Vegeta to have ever made up for his many crime atrocities public and personal

vegeta trie and relapse, and that is normal, the problem is when HE relapse, boy thing goes for shit, like he allow cell to reach is UNLIMITED POWAH! and then allow majin boo to form.

quite predictable, he get punch like a bitch in both acounts.

If you were to describe Yoda's belief of the force in the original trilogy, he's all about living in the moment. He criticizes Luke for living in the future. And what's the first mention of Yoda in the prequels? Obi-wan saying Yoda told him 'to be mindful of the future' to which Qui-gon retorts 'But never at the expense of the present. Yoda and the other jedi are always thinking about the future whereas Qui-gon lives in the moment. No money to pay for spare parts? A solution will present itself eventually. And he's presented as the outcast, the rebel. But when the Jedi order falls and Yoda realizes the extent of his and Jedi's failure, who does he learn about the force from? Qui-gon. I don't believe for a second that this was unintentional. The Jedi Order is supposed to be flawed as hell in the prequels.

George Lucas himself pointed out that Anakin's problem wasn't that he loved Padme.

It's that he wanted to possess Padme. His "love" had become something warped and selfish.

Anakin being Closed Fist like is extra fitting considering his signature Force Choke...and who its first victim was.

Edited by M84 on Jan 21st 2020 at 12:56:06 AM

We also don't know what Luke's order was like. The old order failure he replicated was buying into his own hype, not forbidding the padawans to bone.

Edited by Krory21 on Jan 20th 2020 at 8:58:45 AM

And while some people give Yoda a hard time for not giving Anakin more helpful advice...well, that's what happens when you don't give your therapist the full story. They can't help you.

@Frozen Wolf. I dunno, i felt that Bioware actually gave some of the best defense to the Jedi in Kotor despite pointing out how fucked up they are.

I'd like to point out the Yuthura Ban, which is a decon-recon switch done well, Ban was a slave, then freed then became a Jedi, wanted to help fellow Slaves but told by Jedi to be more patient before helping them ( Which makes sense because if you go gung ho about these sort of things, they tend to get worse ) Ban refuses, fucks off to the Sith, then becomes yet another power hungry Sith who does not give a shit about slaves, then realizes error then returns to the Jedi.

The Point is, for all the Jedi's flaws, they do genuinely care despite being being dogmatic.

Even in the Prequels where the Jedi are discussing taking over in the interim after arresting Palpatine, Yoda is concerned about where the Jedi are going down.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jan 20th 2020 at 9:00:13 AM

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2017/04/selfish-love-why-the-jedi-were-right-about-attachment/

This essay have a point I think. According to Lucas the Jedi is not celibate so what do the Jedi mean when they say attachment,

“Most importantly, Luke’s quest to redeem Vader does not come from attachment, from a fear of losing his father; instead it comes from compassion. “I can save him,” he tells Leia – his goal is to save Anakin’s soul. His thoughts are for Anakin, not for himself, and he is prepared to sacrifice his life in the attempt to ease his father’s torment. Through these actions, the same compassion awakens in Anakin. He is not motivated by wanting to keep Luke in his own life, as he was with Padmé; he is willing to die to ease Luke’s suffering. He has finally found someone he cares more about than himself, and this selflessness saves the galaxy.”

This is the only argument that even halfway makes Vader’s redemption work for me

Anakin's flaw up till the moment he threw Palpatine down that reactor shaft was that he really believed It's All About Me.

So what's your primary beef with Vader's redemption?

And speaking off, i heard a comment that JJ Abrams didn't like that his kids related to Anakin or something. Does anyone have a source?

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jan 20th 2020 at 9:59:27 AM

That his turn to the dark side was because he wanted to protect his loved ones and that his turn back to the light side was that he wanted to protect his loved ones

The way this essay contextualizes it makes more sense to me, in the sense that yes it does feel like an actual change

Although I’m still salty that after all the atrocities Vader committed, one action is enough for him to go to the ghost club for cool Jedi

Which is why I’ll continue to believe that it was either only for the benefit of Luke or that being a ghost is Anakin’s purgatory because Yoda and Obi Wan and Qui Gon are going to give him hell

Edited by Bocaj on Jan 20th 2020 at 12:59:46 PM

Personally, i think Anakin force ghost is just something Luke had in his head, that he was just wistfully imagining Anakin alongside his other teachers, while his actual soul is keeping Palpatine trapped in force hell for eternity. ( This movie had a Palpatine clone who thought he was Palpatine. That's the only way i can accept it. )

Even Lucas admits, Anakin doesn't really atone for his crimes, just stops a horrible thing from happening. In that quote Slimcoder cited.

But yes, the difference between possessive love and genuine selfless love is what always made Vader's redemption more believable to me.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jan 20th 2020 at 10:28:42 AM

It's more of misconception to believe that Anakin's ghost suggested that he's now in Jedi Heaven. Based on Lucas' statements, the general afterlife for all lifeforms in the galaxy is becoming one with the Force, regardless if you were good or evil. It's just that the Sith saw it as the worst imaginable hell possible because it would mean losing their identity and thus "ceasing to exist." Being a Force Ghost is less of going to heaven and more of being a servant to the will of the Force to impart direct knowledge to new generations.

I mean think about it. For Anakin, this would be, in theory, the best way to atone for his sins as he would guide Luke and others to not make the same mistakes as he did. If it was really heaven, then he would have been reunited with Padmé in the Netherworld of the Force and somehow, I don't think even he could forgive himself for what he has done to her despite saving their son in the end. There's a little bittersweet irony in that Anakin and Padmé are forever separated but Anakin could live with that, knowing that his son deserves a reunion with Padmé more than he did.

Also the thing with happeing is finally doing what he should, defeating darkness and putting and end to the empire, while that dosent repair the damage to the people he bring, it does repaid his actions on the empire by toppling

Anakin: the start and end of all problems

Really the main problem with the Jedi is that they just got really complacent after basically being successful for a thousand years.

Like you try not becoming stagnant & regressing into immense traditionalism after a Goddamn unquestioned millennia-long run.

The Jedi just needed a good kick in the pants & instead they got a bullet........ a whole shit-ton of bullets in the pants.

Damn Jedi literally lived in Ivy towers,not too surprising they fell

The fact of the matter is they took things for granted because things were so peaceful so didn't feel the need to make any progressions. Well the sith for a thousand years had been carefully improving and increasing their powers for a moment to strike.

It's not a 100 percent their fault either. The system had honestly worked and none of the living jedi even yoda had ever actually fought a sith Lord so it really did take them off guard.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 20th 2020 at 3:21:22 AM

In other words

"The greatest teacher, Failure is"