Vampire: The Masquerade 5E

Well fuck, I had a post about the metaplot (mainly talking about why I felt a reboot, either soft or hard, would have been better than the attempt at just continuing it like they did), but it was initially fairly long so, when I was almost finished and in fear that I would lose the two hours of typing where I wrote, deleted and rewrote sections of it until it was down to a more concise three paragraph post, I pressed 'Save Draft'... And now my entire post is gone.

Fucking fuckity fuck.

Damn man, I'm sorry. I hate when that happens and I really wanted to hear your opinion on all this.

I'm a huge 5E fanboy and a major supporter of it.

I'm heavily invested in Chicago by Night 5E and just got a deal negotiated with Paradox Interactive on something else. Still, I love feedback from long time fans.

Basically what it boiled down to was this (and this will not be as refined and distilled as the original post, but screw it):

Continuing the current metaplot is bad, not just because you can't fix Kudzu Plot by introducing more Kudzu Plot that happens to retcon some of the old Kudzu Plot away, but also because of all the mechanical changes of V5 to all but six of the seven original Clans ^note which were only slightly tweaked to bring them closer to their original 1st edition themes and identities. The seventh, of course, being Clan Tremere, the only one of the seven original Clans to be massively changed from their 1st Edition incarnation. It's really hard or frequently impossible to do a mechanical conversion of any character, whether they're a PC or an NPC, from a previous edition to V5 and still end up with a character than can do the same basic things, unless they're part of those six Clans.

Since you can't really keep running most Chronicles started in a previous Edition with V5 without major mechanical rewrites and/or retcons, there's little benefit to even trying to make the new V5 plot follow on directly from the plot of previous editions. Because mechanics can and do impact narrative in a major way.

Not to harp on about the Tremere (no, genuinely), but this is the best example I can give:
In my Regent character's background the first time he comes face to face with the supernatural nature of his future Sire is when in a fit of suicidal despair (brought on by a slight mistake she made when manipulating him through Dominate over the years) he throws himself off a building and she uses Movement of the Mind to stop his fall and put him on the ground safely. This is the catalyst for both his awe at the power of Thaumaturgy and his dedication to his Sire enduring past the replacement of his Blood Bond to her (as her Ghoul) with a partial Blood Bond to the Clan after his Embrace.
None of which works in V5, because Movement of the Mind has been retconned out of existence. So by virtue of his established background my Regent character now achieves something normally reserved for Traveller: Death through Character Creation.
Either that or the background stays the same with his Sire having used Movement of the Mind at the time, but then all of a sudden she and the entire Clan have forgotten how to use it, because it no longer works (there's literally no RAW for it to be possible, not even a framework to houserule it off of).
And either way my character's goal of learning it someday has become moot because there's literally no way he can because it doesn't exist and/or retroactively never did.

Again: That's not a complaint about the changes to Clan Tremere (though, you know, I'm not a fan), but an example of how trying to continue the narrative of a chronicle from a previous version in V5 is not generally feasible if even one player character isn't from those six Clans, because of how mechanics and narrative influence each other.

(Another, simple example would be an Assamite from the Warrior Caste who works as an Assassin specifically against users of Blood Magic, even within her own Clan, because she hates Blood Magic, but is also an expert in using Quietus' contact poisons in her kills... That character is unplayable as such in V5, because those Quietus poisons she's been using are now explicitly part of the only form of Blood Magic to be confirmed to exist. And before you say 'well, she could be a hypocrite or simply be someone who does not know or refuses to acknowledge that Quietus is a form of Blood Magic'. Yeah... But that changes the nature and context of the character. She wasn't any of those things and now suddenly she is.)

Basically I feel it would have been much better if they'd just done a reboot.

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 24th 2018 at 5:30:59 PM

At the risk of pointing out the obvious but aren't you reading it completely wrong?

The Paths didn't cease to exist via Retgone, they're now just unnecessary.

Blood Sorcery 3 (Alternate Power) Telekinesis

Blood Sorcery 3 (Alternate Power) Fireball

Blood Sorcery 5 (Alternate Power) Hurricane

Every Discipline now has Paths rather than Paths ceasing to exist. The difference is you don't need previous levels in it to have them.

So your Tremere can learn the level 5 of Weather Control without having to have any other weather control powers but, maybe, Lure of the Flames or Telekinesis powers he likes.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 24th 2018 at 8:55:53 AM

Where exactly are those? 'Cause they're not in any V5 book that's currently commercially available (i.e. Just the Core Rulebook at this moment).

Also, that's not Paths.

As said, I'm not opposed to the Requiem style 'multiple power options per dot' system... But that's not the same as Paths, because a Path is essentially an entire additional Discipline.

The 'point' of Thaumaturgy Paths is/was not that you got to pick cool powers... It was that to get to the cool powers at the end of the Path, you had to work your way all the way through that Path (and if it wasn't your Main Path and you wanted a power that was higher than the dots you had in your Main Path, you had to get your Main Path up to there first). You know, just like any other Discipline.

People who complained about 'old'(I guess it's old now) Thaumaturgy and how overpowered it supposedly was always seemed to forget all about its various baked in balance factors.

A relevant one being that most of the complaints about how unfair Thaumaturgy was were based not in reality, but in the purely hypothetical amount of options Thaumaturgy offered. Which may seem unfair on paper... Until you remember that those options still required XP like any other Discipline and unlike any other in-Clan Discipline, they required a teacher, which meant it was entirely up to the Storyteller which Paths a character had access to and which unspeakable acts they needed to perform to convince a teacher to actually, you know, teach them. For the same XP cost that a Tremere could get two Paths of Thaumaturgy to 5 dots, any other character could also get two In-Clan Disciplines to 5 dots.

The one most relevant here, though, being that Thaumaturgy Paths didn't have any Advanced/Elder tier, so the only option for a Tremere Elder to build out their Thaumaturgy after the fifth Dot in their main Path was to start on a second Path.
Which in turn means that a Tremere Elder NPC will frequently have dots in multiple Paths, because that's basically their only option for showing 'Elder' level skill in Thaumaturgy.

So... Getting to pick between Telekinesis and Fireball is still not a good conversion option if an Elder NPC is supposed to have both and be able to use then at varying levels above or below what each single power offers.

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 24th 2018 at 8:54:15 PM

When it come to the metaplot, a problem is masquarate goes to gehenna, to the final confrontation, that is were a lot of plot points goes: antidilivvians, caine, etc.

So now with that gone they have to retcon A LOT, and it feel now it like a retcon with calling a retcon since there isnt final days anymore.

Now, what exactly the giovanni doing right now? and how the inquisition go so powerfull?.

The last book of V20 was Beckett's Jyhad Diary which goes from 2006 to 2016 in terms of what's been going on in the World of Darkness.

MASSIVE METAPLOT SPOILERS

A list of things include:

• The Assamite Schism
• The Great Leap Outward never occurred or was beaten back
• Marcus Vitel is alive and retakes Washington D.C. from the Sabbat before setting up an independent city.
• Polonia organizes a massive crusade to the Middle East because he's believed he's found the Antediluvians' resting place.
• Methuselahs start getting summoned to the Middle East to fight the Sabbat.
• Vykos regains his sanity
• The Baali take over Istanbul and start planning to make a new Constantinople of HELL.
• There's another Sabbat Civil War brewing with the Paths of Enlightenment getting abandoned for pure monstrousness and diablerie.
• Mithras is organizing an army in London to take it over.
• Isabella Giovanni decides to negotiate a treaty between the Samedi, Cappadochian Remnants, and Giovanni.
• Beckett talks to the Laibon who state there's a LOT more Clans than 13 in both Africa as well as South America. What a lot of people think of as Bloodlines are just clans and the "Drowned" are the American Clans which have been masquerading as European Clans.
• Beckett also discovers Gehenna is Cyclical. The Antes wake up, eat most of the eldest progeny, and go back to sleep. That's why so few vampires Methuselah from before 2000 years ago exist. He's appropriately horrified as it means the Antes are RANCHING their descendants and have been for 10,000 years.
• Oh and the Amis Noctis (Lasombra clan leaders) with Beckett discover Lasombra is still alive.

THEN ALL OF THIS GETS FOLLOWED UP ON IN V5 by...

• The government and Society of Leopold have made contact after the Camarilla botches using the NSA and CIA to monitor the Sabbat. The FBI SAD contacts the NSA and CIA before reading them in while the Society gives them 1000 years of vampire hunting lore. They then hack Schrekt.net.
• The Nosferatu trash as much information as they can but leave the Giovanni information (this is followed up on later).
• The US government gives the Society of Leopold 7 billion dollars and all the military equipment they want plus carte blanche to use it (under their supervision). The Society recruits several thousand new members from Catholic Special Forces, Marines, and regular army.
• The government also reads in the SIS, Mossad, French intelligence, and others and start recruiting police, vampire hunters (including freeing some from prisons or asylums), and more.
• SOMETHING WEIRD HAPPENS that all of these agencies collectively agree not to reveal this to the public and it holds down to the lowest ranks. The books lampshade this is impossible. So the Masquerade is being held by the government and vampires both now.
• Using CCTV and thermal vision equipped drones, the SI eliminates all vampires in London. Mithras allows himself to be killed after evacuating his followers but a Loresheet reveals he's Ascended to a Higher Plane of Existence.
• The Giovanni are wiped out in Las Vegas, Boston, and other locations. They're forced back to Italy and they join with the Samedi and Cappadochians to become the Hecate.
• The Tremere lose the Vienna Chantryhouse and the Council of Seven along with all the Elders staying there when all of their wards go down as well as their teleportation tactics. The daytime attack, phosphorous rounds, and later missiles leave it a burning wreck. The Tremere believe the Society of Leopold broke their wards but other vampires believe it was Saulot, Tremere, Kupala, or the Easter Bunny.
• The Camarilla reacts to the SI by proceeding to direct them to the Sabbat as well as Anarchs. They're more concerned with the Beckoning as hundreds of ancients have left to fight in the Gehenna Wars.
• When Theo Bell finds out the Anarchs and Thin Bloods will be purged to hide the Camarilla, he assassinates Hardestadt at a Convention that causes the Ventrue to expel the Brujah. All Anarchs are expelled from the Camarilla as well. Only a few Brujah remain.
• The Brujah join the Gangrel in the Anarchs and they go from being a minor sect to a powerful one. Some Sabbat defect to it as well.
• The Camarilla accept the Banu Haqim to become members and then refuse the Followers of Set. They call the snakes trash and unworthy of the Camarilla.
• The Followers of Set join the Anarchs and give them billions in funds, weapons, and accumulated occult knowledge.
• Kevin Jackson becomes Prince of Chicago and starts negotiating for the Lasombra (who are freaked out by the fact they failed to kill their Antediluvian and how the Sabbat in the Gehenna War are getting MORE crazy) to enter the Camarilla.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 24th 2018 at 12:30:49 PM

"There's another Sabbat Civil War brewing with the Paths of Enlightenment getting abandoned for pure monstrousness and diablerie. "

Why? the path were a intersting thing since it was funny and engaging to see a monster engage for a code rather than pure morality.

It's part of the Everything Old Is New Again of the edition. In this case, it's going back to 1st Edition.

• The Camarilla vs. Anarchs
• The Sabbat as purely evil monsters
• The Independent Clans mysterious and weird

Plus Humanity doesn't work like it used to. You can basically be on a Path and you'd still have Humanity because you believe in something. Low Humanity vampires only believe in Hunger.

But in this case, the plot point is the Lasombra Elders are evil conniving and enlightened monsters.

The new Sabbat are just pure Hunger, Death, and Satanism. So the Lasombra need new allies because the Sabbat has failed as a sect. It helps the Camarilla acknowledges the Antediluvians now and has allowed Caine worship to be practiced.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 24th 2018 at 12:34:41 PM

This, of course, goes directly against the Clanbook, in which it's explained that in the modern world, with Clan Tremere spread across multiple Continents, while it's still the official headquarters of the Clan and many important artefacts, documents and other valuables are kept there the Council of Seven never physically meets in the Chantryhouse of Vienna any more (and while 'being called to Vienna' is still a colloquialism, most Tremere who get that call meet their end long before they reach Europe), instead the Councillors responsible for various territories outside Continental Europe, being Elders with access to Advanced Tier Auspex, attend meetings in Vienna via astral projection.

(Yes, yes, Tremere again... Look, that's the Clan I know the most about and thus can spot the inconsistencies with the best, ok? )

(And sure, it's possible that this is intentional so that they can bring some Councillors, like Meerlinda, back. It makes total sense for Meerlinda to be in hiding and secretly backing House Carna, as she was always the one most protective and supportive of Anarch and Autarkis Tremere.)

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 24th 2018 at 10:19:51 AM

And what about Cain and Lilith? I get they will take a huge back in this edition since they are kicking the metaplot, isnt?.

By the way I like the new way of handling Humanity... Though I'm a bit leery of the Remorse mechanic.

I get that there needs to be some way of clearing Stain other than just eventual Degeneration, but the end of a session seems like a very arbitrary point to do it, since sessions are not even a (very loose) in-game measurement of time the way Scenes are.

Which can lead to wonky situations where high Humanity characters can kill multiple people in a single fight and dodge Degeneration solely by the expedient of the combat taking too long to finish in one session, so they get an opportunity to wipe away their Stains mid-combat, while in another situation an incredibly low Humanity character can be forced into Degeneration and Torpor because their feeding habits require them to incur Stains and unlike most sessions in the Chronicle, which includes one or two feedingmoments, there just happens to be one session which includes a two week time skip, giving them no opportunity to bleed off those Stains like they normally would.

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 24th 2018 at 10:43:10 AM

No, the Seven were having an emergency meeting of some kind when it happened. Nicolai from Chicago by Night was also killed during the attack. This sort of stuff is written by Matthew Dawkins (aka Youtube's "The Gentleman Gamer") and he's actually a bigger lore nerd than me so he addresses details like that.

Neither of them have been spotted if that's what you mean both both the Church of Caine and Lilith worship are now recognized vampire religions doing their own thing separate from the Sabbat.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 24th 2018 at 1:51:41 AM

4 days left on the Kickstarter and 91K having been achieved.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/chicago-by-night-for-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-ed/description

Here's the last of the Stretch Goals:

At $93,000 in funding - ART BUDGET INCREASE – Additional funds will be allocated to the art budget for Chicago By Night, allowing Onyx Path to include even more awesome art in the city supplement.

At $95,000 in funding - CHICAGO-THEMED GAMING GEAR - Dog Might Games will make Chicago By Night-themed gaming gear available for order (including a Chicago skyline Screen and a Lasombra symbol sheath). Click HERE to see their current Vampire offerings.

AT $96,000 in funding - LET THE STREETS RUN RED – A fourth and final chronicle will be added to Let the Streets Run Red.

At $100,000 in funding - NEW ADD-ON REWARD: VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE 5th Edition Core Book PDF - A new Add-On Reward will be created. For +$24.99, backers will receive a PDF version of the Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition Core Book, the new edition that honors the deep story of the original, advancing the metaplot from where it left off and detailing exactly what has happened in the world of the Kindred up until tonight.

At $105,000 in funding - CHICAGO FOLIO: HERETICAL THREATS AND OBSERVATIONS – A fourth section will be added to the Chicago Folio, including the perspectives of the Church of Caine.

At $110,000 in funding - NEW ADD-ON REWARD: LET THE STREETS RUN RED - A new Add-On Reward will be created. For +$10, backers will receive the PDF version of Let the Streets Run Red. This Add On is available to Chicago By Night PDF Backers – Note: Chicago By Night hardcover backers will already have this reward automatically added to their rewards list.

I'm kinda upset they more or less removed Dementation, leaving only a lackluster ability in Dominate.

The biggest problem with Dementation is a lot of what it does can be done with Mesmerism.

"You're a duck."

That's... Not what Dementation (the pre-V5 Discipline, nor the V5 Dominate power) does.

The Pre-V5 Discipline Dementation can rouse emotions, cause confusion, discern hidden patterns and instil and enflame a wide variety of insanity.

The V5 Dominate power Dementation can... Damage willpower and maybe make someone act very irrational if you use it on them a lot or catch them at a bad moment.

"Vykos regains his sanity "

Ok....how? and why? after all Vykos have two things with it: it was batshit insane and it was a awfull tzimice.

Also the whole "there is a piece on ever vissitude user" aspect gone?.

Apparently, Vykos has been possessed by The Dracon for centuries.

The Dracon was freed from them and now they're sane, genderfluid, and still an evil mad scientist but in a rationale non-sadistic way.

No idea since Onyx Path is now in charge of the line and have been dialing back a lot of changes.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 24th 2018 at 8:20:37 AM

I mean, so far I know Tzimice, the antidiluvian have a piece of him in every vissitude user and can siwch at anytime, also obstenetration also conect the lasombra antidiluvian, there is rumors that malk the antidiluvian is in the madness network.....

Yeah they need to tone down this.

A little more than 2 days left.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/chicago-by-night-for-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-ed/description

@Charles Thanks for the reader's digest recap of what happened with disciplines. I'm not 100% on board with it (totally would have folded Presence and Dominate together, and I say that as a Ventrue player), but it mostly makes sense (particularly Serpentis into Protean... I think my brain always blanks on Serpentis because it was just so lazily done).

Also, I realize fully that this is hair-splitting, but some of the stuff you attribute to Beckett's Jyhad Diary was pre-Time of Judgment. In particular, the Assamite schism was already well underway thanks to the clan reacting to the awakening of Ur-Shulgi (though there wasn't a formal Assamite faction in the Camarilla as yet, it was discussed as a very likely upcoming thing), and Marcus Vitel was revealed (mostly in flavor text, admittedly) as alive and still plotting (and fuck that guy... yes, I played DC at Night).

In terms of metaplot... can I just say that I am just done with the Baali? Thanks to killing off the Blood Brothers (okay, technically they're not completely done, but they're all but done), they're the bloodline I'm least fond of. I mean, I'm already a bloodsucking fiend fighting other bloodsucking fiends, do we really need to add devil worship on top of that for horror? Their continued presence (particularly when we already have the, fine, Ministry of Love, the Hekata, and crossovers from other oWoD lines, though other metaplot details suggest that we're surgically removing that for what should be fairly obvious reasons) just feels like an unnecessary drag on everything.

I have to admit, overall, I'm glad that the Giovanni got a huge shakeup. Between the Cappadocians and their other remnants (the Samedi, the Harbingers of Skulls) being more interesting overall and the fact that they mostly seemed to exist for everyone else to shit on (even the writers!), it looks like they collectively might become more interesting. That said, I'm curious as to how they're retconning the destruction of the Lamia.

That said, the Ministry of Love? Dear lord, that writeup makes them sound even more unbearable. Stake all of them.

Also, on one hand, part of me goes "isn't it a bit much to expect Theo Bell to be able to take down Hardestadt, given the latter's age and power?" On the other, fuck it, it's pretty awesome, and if I were to pick anyone to finally dust Hardestadt, I'm glad it's Theo.

Oh, as for the Lasombra and the growing number of antitribu heading Cam, do they address Giangaleazzo at all? In the Time of Judgment books, he pretty epically joined the Camarilla and brought some Lasombra with him. That said, given Milan's very shaky position as a very newly acquired Camarilla city, I could easily see him being forced to see the sunrise or somehow otherwise manipulated out of a Princedom.

The Schism is an odd duck since it was retconned as not happening then retconned back in. It was basically delayed like Judgement Day.

:)

I think Matthew Dawkins has said he didn't much care for the Order of Moloch and ambiguous Baali—however monstrous. The Baali exist like the Nephandi (and to an extent, the Sabbat) as unambiguous monsters so the Kindred can kill them.

They are like Brother Vick in Bloodlines.

Just there to be a dragon to slay.

Theo being able to do it is attributed to two facts:

• Hardestadt was never as old as he claimed to be and is more or less confirmed to be Jurgen from Vampire: The Dark Ages vicissituded into looking like his sire. So an 800 year old vampire.
• Under the new rules he was limited to Fortitude 5 anyway.

The defection of half the Lasombra Clan gets covered with the following. Since the Kickstarter is almost over, I'll let a bit more spill.

• Its the Amis Noctis and Marcus Vitel's baby. Marcus basically thinks the defection is a good opportunity to make himself Inner Councilman of the Lasombra given he's the only vampire with any pull in the Federal government/Second Inquisition (that he is heavily involved in).
• The Antitribu are both helping the process along and making sure the terms are brutal.
• Kevin Jackson fucked up by making an outrageous demand (One staked Sabbat elder per defection) as a joke and getting called on it. So the Lasombra decapitate a large number of Sabbat they were going to have to do anyway in order to make sure the defection wasn't suicidal and use them as their blood price.
  • This plan actually doesn't work 100% out for the Lasombra as plenty of defecting Lasombra get targeted by the people they were planning to sacrifice themselves once the way the wind starts blowing is detected.
• The Antitribu had taken Mexico City with their brethren just prior as a way to severely impede future Sabbat retaliation.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 26th 2018 at 11:33:46 AM

I suppose that chunks of the Time of Judgment books being retconned out makes sense, though the Assamite Schism seems like an odd one (though push comes to shove, the only thing being retconned is the date it started, apparently... and as noted, it's more like hair-splitting than anything else).

To some extent, I can accept the Nephandi in Mage: the Ascension because you can take a "lighter shade of grey" look at both of the major players in the Ascension War, so I can see making a more villainous faction to pit against both. That said, for all of the oWoD games, I find having that cartoonishly evil faction kicking around just missing the point of both games. I just don't like playing with them (though in regards to the "dragon to slay" mindset... heck, wasn't that one-dimensional writing part of the issue with the very first version of the Assamites?).

For Hardestadt (the Younger)... I mean, even in the old write-ups, he only had Fortitude 5 admittedly. But with his mastery of Dominate and Presence, and his other physical disciplines easily on par with Theo's, it feels like Theo either had to have a brilliant plan, or someone threw Hardestadt the Idiot Ball (I mean, yes, Theo did win in one Gehenna timeline in the old system, but that was specifically under The Withering, so Hardestadt was hit harder by the nerf than Theo was). It's an element I love from a storytelling perspective, but I have issue with from a gameplay perspective. I also kinda miss Jan, but if Hardestadt is going down, yeah, Jan is probably going to be collateral damage.

Wait, whoa... Vitel is openly admitting to being Lasombra? I'd love to know how the hell he's planning on pulling that off after pretending to be Ventrue for how many decades. Though to some extent, the fact that some of the Lasombra end up sacrificing each other for power and security... the more things change, amirite?

They actually cover Theo's assassination of Hardestadt in the Camarilla (sourcebook) that is presently out of print for causing an international incident. The short version was Hardestadt ordered the top dogs of many clans to gather together to kneel before their Inner Councilmen and swear eternal allegiance and present symbolic gifts.

Theo Bell surprised everyone before kneeling before Hardestadt, shocking everyone, before he turned his wrapped up modified Dragonsbreath shotgun to shoot him up the chin.

Apparently Hardestadt botched his Fortitude roll.

Theo's Anarch buddies then attacked the Conclave of Prague and they all escaped in the confusion. Jan, sadly, was killed in the process and Theo was pissed about that despite him being a target.

Vitel's status as a Lasombra came out in the Clan Novels and Theo was sent to kill him with Cristof (yes, of Redemption fame) along with a bunch of other Archons you might as well have dressed in Red Shirts. This was after he had lost Washington D.C. to the Sabbat under Vykos' command so it's implied the Camarilla was pulling a You Have Outlived Your Usefulness.

Theo thought he killed Vitel before Vitel popped up in Washington D.C. as a Lasombra "Anarch" declaring the city neutral territory after leading a bunch of Brujah and Gangrel to kill the Sabbat in the city.

Its now known as the "Empire Of Washington D.C."

The central joke is Vitel made an army of angry armed Anarchs that allowed him to be Prince through the miracle of paying them a shit ton of money and good feeding grounds.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 26th 2018 at 1:02:06 AM