Super Smash Bros Ultimate (SPOILER Thread)

If a product has high sales, then it has the merits of appealing and entertaining to many people.

Just because something sold well doesn't mean it's good. Sonic '06 sold well, as did Superman 64.

Fates is just a game I really hate. some characters are fine, but I just don't like it. I didn't like Awakening much either, but it had better characters at the least and also didn't have Phoenix Mode.

Also Fates I had to buy the game 3 TIMES to experience all the contenr, which is a huge part as to why I hate it.

Popular doesn't equal good. Also, reviews aren't the gospel. IGN gave Sonic Unleashed a worse score then '06, and it's a beloved game in the Franchise/Sonic fanbase, while Colors has been getting a good amount of flack since it's relase, and it got good reviews. Hell, Sonic 4 got good reviews, and it's one of the most hated games in the franchise.

Edited by ultimate_life_form on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:33:49 AM

Birthright Metascore: 86

Conquest Metascore: 87

Revelation Metascore: 88

Special Edition Metascore: 88

Radiant Dawn Metascore: 78

Shadow Dragon Metascore: 81

Unleashed, a "beloved" game? Really? From what I've seen, it's considered a middling game at best.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:35:57 AM

So what makes your opinion on a game more correct than others'. What makes your opinion on a game's quality more relevant in discussing it in Smash more than others'?

Basically what x3 said. You're dodging the question. If high sales is all it takes to be good quality, then you must think Twilight, Sonic 2006 and Superman 64 are high quality as well. Am I right about that? But...you know...they're not?

The only other option is....maybe sales and reviews don't automatically make something good? I don't mean to be passive-aggressive (legitimately, I'm not trying to be snide here), but the amount of mental gymnastics you're doing to try to avoid acknowledging this point is impressive.

To reiterate, we're not the ones hardcore claiming that all it takes is sales and reviews to be good. That's you. We're saying "just because it sold well doesn't mean it's good," which you're fighting tooth and nail against despite evidence to the contrary.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:39:47 AM

Then how do you objectively say something is good?

You know, remember when Lucina and Robin had people excited? Good times.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:38:24 AM

You can't. There is no objective way to measure anything's quality. But at the same time, it's impossible to say "this sold well, so shut up it's amazing." That's what we were saying.

I was talking about how certain parts of the fanbase didn't like it and why they didn't. But you kept insisting that because it sold well, all criticism was irrelevant and it was great. That's not how things work.

Then there's no point in saying "Corrin is unworthy because they came from a bad game."

You keep switching between "sales don't mean it's good" and "Sales and positive reviews don't mean it's good" as if they were the same stance.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:40:48 AM

x2 I'm not agreeing with that point. I just had an issue with using sales figures or reviews as an inarguable measure of quality. In the past that's been used as a way to silence criticism against things, which is a pet peeve of mine.

Because they are? Reviews are opinions, and critics and fans can have very different reviews on things based on exactly what appeals to them and what they consider high quality. Sales just means that a large enough fanbase exists that the product appeals to. The point is that you can't just say "this game reviewed well and has a fanbase, so it's amazing, end of story."

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:42:10 AM

With the recent reviews bombing incident, I have given up on reading fan reviews.

I don't believe in "dudes on internet trash this game so it's bad" either.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:43:19 AM

But you keep citing things that didn't get positive reviews to support your arguments that sales don't mean quality and acting as if that also proves that positive reviews don't mean quality.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:46:15 AM

What? The point I'm making is that just because something gets good reviews or has high sales or both doesn't mean it's automatically the best thing ever, no criticism allowed.

I'm saying that reviews aren't inarguable assertions of quality either. Critic and fan reviews often return differing scores. Critics often rate something much lower than the fanbase would rate it. So which is right?

Neither. Because again, reviews are objective and can't be taken as "proof" of a game's quality. Because you can't have an objective measure of how good a game is. That is what I'm trying to say. I don't know how else I can explain it?

So regardless of quality, Fates definitely made Nintendo happy. I think that's what matters the most in the end.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:52:45 AM

You act like your opinion is the objective, correct measure and anything that doesn't agree with it is objectively wrong. And denying any possible value of determining a possible consensus.

Uh...I'm sorry, what? I'm not certain you grasped the point of my posts. Not trying to be a dick or anything, but did you read them?

You can't have a consensus on a piece of entertainment, since art is subjective by its very nature. You cannot objectively as a fact say "This product is good, end of story."

I legitimately don't know where you're getting that interpretation of my posts. I have been saying that there's no objective way to measure a product's quality, because there's no such thing as objective quality.

The point raised was that good reviews and good sales objectively made a product good. Obviously this isn't the case, which is what I was arguing about. I don't see what your issue is, unless you're trying to say that good reviews objectively make something good?

Because...I don't see how peoples' opinions are suddenly objective fact?

Uh, you can have a consensus on a piece of entertainment. The fact that Superman 64 has been used as an example implied that thinking that the game is good is wrong.

Or Twilight

You imply that I should agree with the consensus that Twilight is not amazing literature. The fact is I haven't read it but I would likely agree if I had.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Mar 28th 2020 at 12:05:38 PM

That was used because, going by the original point of "sales=subjective quality," then you'd have to insist that game is objectively good as well since it sold well when it came out.

Not as a way to demonstrate that there was an objective way to categorize quality.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 28th 2020 at 12:09:10 PM

What if I had insisted that the game were good?

BTW my original argument was "sales + reviews > personal opinions" when it come to measuring quality.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Mar 28th 2020 at 12:10:09 PM

A consensus doesn't mean you have universal agreement, just that there's a particular opinion that's most common. Like, sure, some people might say that Battlefield Earth is there favorite movie, but you place more value in those few people or the large number of people who think that it sucks?

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Mar 28th 2020 at 12:09:10 PM

Then that's your opinion. Opinions can't be right or wrong.

You were hardlining the fact that "sales=must be objectively good, end of story," which can easily be argued against.

Whether you choose to accept that it's true or not is another story. But at this point this is going in circles, and I've made my point whether or not it's agreed with.

That wasn't the point I was originally arguing at all (my point being you can't objectively say something is good just because of sales or reviews), but this derail has gone far enough.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Mar 28th 2020 at 12:12:22 PM

It's fine for you to like Fates. That's ok. I personally however, dislike it, and if you want to defend it, saying that it sold well and got good reviews isn't gonna cut it. I want to see why YOU think it's a good game.

Also Unleashed is pretty beloved by now. People still complain about the Werehog, but the Day stages are viewed as some of the best level design of the Boost Era, which puts it far above Colors, Forces, and Lost World.

My opinion on Fates isn't relevant. I am only one person out of 2 million people who played Fates.

I have only played Birthright though.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Mar 28th 2020 at 12:13:56 PM