Joker (2019)

Yeah, John Wick's stuff is revenge and self defense. Joker is just doing it because it's funny to him.

And not, despite Dark Knight and this movie's best efforts to portray otherwise, because society has wronged him.

That is an interesting question and one I've frequently thought about myself. To be frank, I absolutely think a large portion of this movie's defenders would be singing a whole different tune if the protagonist was a minority.

Edited by 1upmushroom on Sep 25th 2019 at 4:20:33 AM

Keanu Reeves is part-Chinese-Hawaiian.

I like watching John Wick a plenty and it's an easier swallow because it's set in a much more stylized and absurd world. It makes it very clear from "Goodnight Jimmy" and all its pervading mythology that none of it is supposed to reflect the real world.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 25th 2019 at 4:27:13 AM

I mean, this movie does portray society as having wronged him, which is why the film is bringing up so many issues with incels, etc.

I don't necessarily think Dark Knight implies that society "wronged him". I have heard some credible-sounding theories about Nolan Joker being a war veteran (Iraq specifically) but that's only vaguely implied, and it's not at all similar to what this film is trying to do.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 25th 2019 at 8:46:19 AM

I don’t recall DK Joker ever being wronged by society.

I thought he was just a guy who simply desired to watch the world burn.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

What actually happened to Ledge's Joker is irrelevant.

He just happens, it's what's scary about him, there seemingly no rhyme or reason to what he does.

Edit: Wait, you meant Iran, never mind.

Edited by HailMuffins on Sep 25th 2019 at 9:52:15 AM

I don't really buy the Joker being a veteran because he's a spook. The government has absolutely nothing on him. It might just be me being naive, but I'm sure the FBI or whoever would at least try to see if he served in the military.

Jason has come back to kill for Mommy.

It was never stated, let alone implied Ledger Joker was wronged by society. There is a reason he told a different story each time he talked about how he got his scars.

As for this film, every review I've seen has stated that nothing Arthur does is justified in the slightest, so it seems the "society wronged him" thing is really overblown.

This is a lot of Hue and cry, no?

Killmonger also did bad things because society 'wronged' him. Why does that characterization make him a complex villain but the same thing as applied to the Joker makes him a bad influence on the children of America? Isn't The Killing Joke pretty much about a man snapping because of One Bad Day?

We didn't see a bunch of African-American youths moving to Africa to start a covert uprising against the west because of Killmonger, so can we maybe extend the same benefit of the doubt to Joker? The narrative of the downtrodden man lashing out at the people he thinks are responsible for his pain is not new.

Edited by edvedd on Sep 25th 2019 at 7:34:50 AM

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project

Killmonger is in a film where the central conflict is that the other characters must recognize that he has a legitimate point but seek a peaceful solution. The film avoids endorsing his violent philosophy by presenting alternatives and demonstrating that it's his thirst for vengeance that keeps him from trying them himself, in contrast to Nakia and T'challa.

Also, real life America cracks down way harder on black revolt than it does on white revolt. The real Black Panther Party is why California has such strong gun laws.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 25th 2019 at 7:51:21 AM

I didn't mean Dark Knight, I meant Joker.

"Yet, the intended shock value is slightly offset by the film’s insinuation that Arthur is, even partially, justified. Others characters are threatening him. They’re bullying him. What choice does he have but to retaliate with a vengeance?"

Edited by alliterator on Sep 25th 2019 at 7:59:39 AM

In one showing of Black Panther, a guy was applauding Killmonger during his "New World Order" speech. Maybe done ironically, maybe not. As seen in Do Not Do This Cool Thing, the fine details are functionally irrelevant when it comes to inspiring someone capable of performing such horrid things.

It’s all about the pageantry.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

"One guy clapped" seems like a pretty low benchmark, to be honest.

When Joker gets wide release, I'd like to see how much the conversation moves toward discussing its perspective on class uprising, since a few critics are saying the violence in the film is framed in a wider setting of the 99% wronged rather than one guy.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:59:59 PM

Plus there are already in real life incel types who do go out on killing sprees. Regardless of whether or not the Joker is specifically lauded or condemned within the text it's uncomfortably close to reality. And the likes of John Wick are most certainly not.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

Okay, why does everyone keep calling this Joker an incel? Do you guys actually know what that term means?

So incel is basically the conservative equivalent of SJ Ws in terms of misuse then.

Jason has come back to kill for Mommy.

Isn't it a plot point that Arthur develops an infatuation with a woman who doesn't return his advances? I haven't looked that hard into spoilers, so I don't know what eventually happens to her. But that's probably where the people are making the "incel" connection.

I heard she, indeed, does return his affections, at least at first.

A trailer has him kissing a woman & she returning the affection.

That kinda disqualifies him as an incel.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Apparently, according to a review I saw with spoilers included, while the girl exists, the romance doesn’t. Arthur keeps imagining romantic scenes and when he tries making out with her, she’s understandably pissed, like “who are you, get out of my house” sorts of pissed.

Jason has come back to kill for Mommy.

Uh, no, not at all. In fact, the term "incel" was coined by the incel community themselves. And it's generally only used to refer to people who, well, refer to themselves in that way. If someone is just a loner, nobody is going to call them an "incel"; that's a specific term for someone who believes that, for some reason, women owe them sex and therefore they are mad at all women for not giving it to them. It's an even more toxic and misogynistic version of "masculinity."

The reason that people are calling the main character of Joker an incel is generally because he is being portrayed as such — including one review calling him the "first incel folk hero."

“Incel” was actually first coined by a bi woman before the term got hijacked to exclusively straight cis men.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:22:16 AM

Now that's some depressing irony.