Netflix's The Dragon Prince

I'm trying to remember, wasn't the creator the center of a harassment scandal? I like the show but all these accolades can't help but feel skeevy to me as a result.

Yes, he's skeevy although not quite sex offender skeevy but still pretty skeevy.

For me I figure hundreds of other peoples also do work on the show so I at least try to be happy for them instead I suppose?

Edited by lycropath on Jul 26th 2020 at 9:34:36 AM

Yeah, even the people who made the accusations against him didn't want others to boycott the show since they and their friends and colleagues still put a lot of work into it.

The Dragon Prince just won the Daytime Emmy Award for Outstanding Children's Animated Series!

Huh, good for them

Good news. I have a fair few issues with the series but I'm still looking forward to more. If they can address some of my complaints in the future, all the better.

Which just makes me wonder... ok, where does this go from here? Like, I'm hella glad the show is going on for four more seasons and hopefully we can fix some of the issues I have with it (Calum kinda being as interesting as raw bread, Villains being more compelling than the heroes, Ezran is always right issue of most Child Protagonists) but... are we really going to stick around with his skeevey and workplace abusive behavior for 4 more seasons? Loosen his grip on the writer's room at least, guys!

Isn't this his story which he created this company to create? I don't see why he shouldn't have final say over the writer's room if that is correct. Storytelling isn't a democracy and those who still work there choose to work there with a clear understanding of this.

That said, I do think HR is needed for more relations with everybody and more general workplace stuff.

Regardless, I am excited that this has been renewed! I hope the best for the series and am really invested in seeing where it goes!

Storytelling isn't a democracy if you're an author, and even then, you have to deal with editors and proofreaders. TV, film, video games, etc. are collaborative efforts, even if some showrunners are pushed as auteurs.

Also, it's as much Justin Richmond's baby, considering they co-founded the company.

This. There's a difference between *A* writer singular and a *writer's room* plural. It doesn't sound like the other's who are working on Dragon Prince are somehow doing their work in bad faith or something and it doesn't excuse him being toxic in response to it. Considering there *is* valid criticism of the way Dragon Prince tells its story, maybe listening to other writers might make a stronger project? That whole collaboration thing?

There's a give and a take to this. Sometimes collaboration can give good ideas. Other times, it outvotes or waters down good ideas that one writer should have stuck to their guns on. But he seems EXTREMELY controlling of the show's story and, well, if the other writers aren't being listened to, they can only make the story so good when they probably don't think something is a good idea or know how to make something work but can't.

A proofreader doesn't have say on the actual content, just catching issues in the prose. I agree with editors giving feedback, but in this analogy, that's when you're working for someone else. And even then, editors don't have final say. They give feedback, often with regards to what would increase market viability, but they don't dictate the content or give actual suggestions. Beyond that, creating an entire company is the equivalent of going into independent publishing instead of publishing houses, at which point it is your final say because you're the boss. Which is what I view starting a company as doing.

As said, I'm not saying it's all justified, but still, I totally see where coming from as it's his project. For other who co-founded, I'd agree as much theirs and then they're the only other person who, from my perspective, should have as much say on the end product. Still, I don't think it should be a democracy, especially when the story is legitimately strong. Too many cooks spoil the broth is a phrase for a reason. Plus, from what I can tell based on all uncovered (though correct me if wrong), the person who left wasn't even part of the writing team.

Admittedly, it's harder for me to empathize against someone controlling things if only because 1) I come from an author's perspective, which means doing work alone and making the final decisions all the time and 2) I'm interested far more in entrepreneurship than I am working for someone else when it comes to creative works.

To note, again, before this point is brought up once more, I'm not saying that his sour attitude is good. I disagree with treating people poorly, especially as management. However, I don't think every voice is valid and equal with regards to the project's completition. It's why I'd say on everything else, yes, he needs to be reigned in and dealt with. Control over the narrative though? I'm on his side when it comes to having the final say, especially given how much work and risk he's had to put in comparative to everybody else as one of the company's heads.

I am admittedly also adverse to the idea of too many people having a say over a project's direction. Though from personal experience. It's why when I do cooperate with others for creative works, I prefer a clear hierarchy, even if it means I'm not in charge. I've consistently seen more issues occur from everybody having an equal say than when there's a clear authority.

Huh... A part of me wishes we knew the actual details because, thinking on it, all this is speculation on both our parts. Like, for instance, what if all the other people's suggestions are bad and they're better in a subordinate role? We have no way of knowing. It's easy to just go "He has an iron grip on it, that means he's bad", but I do wonder how much we are missing context wise about every decision. It's entirely possible his grasp on things IS stopping it from being even better, which, given that it is great as is, would blow my mind with where it could be then.

At any rate, so long as the end product entertains me and meets my expectations as an audience member, I don't care who controls the writer's room. The only thing that actually bothers me is him being a prick to people in ways that aren't necessary or even practical, which I'm hoping HR deals with since that's their job.

On the subject of "should Ehasz listen to other voices more in the writing process/be more excepting of the idea of changing things" debate going on:

Its been awhile since I read the accusations, and as they're buried in multiple long twitter threads that are difficult (at least for me) to follow, I might be misunderstanding things, but here's an example of one of the ways he disregarded feedback from others.

If I understood correctly, multiple LGBT people in the staff (writer's room or otherwise because Wonderstom is a tiny company) told Ehasz that Runaan and Ethari being a couple, and especially their kiss, was a bad idea, at least in the way it was handled in season three. Specifically they felt it was inappropriate that both of the canon gay romances at that point in the show were about characters who were either already dead or already torn apart due to tragic circumstances before being revealed as they felt that had serious unfortunate implications.

Ehasz ignored all those suggestions and kept telling them how important and groundbreaking it would be, especially the Runaan/Ethari kiss. This led to at least the accuser feeling like Ehasz cared more about getting the accolades and positive press for including LGBT content than actually doing right by them.

So there's definitely room for some opening up to criticism from the rest of the staff, especially when handling sensitive themes correctly.

My opinion on the larger "what do we do about Ehasz's behavior" controversy is that's its a very tough one. While I don't think his apology was very good, the accusations are along the lines of him being a jerk and creating an uncomfortable work environment, which isn't illegal or pushed back against the same way physical or sexual harassment is. It should be pushed back against, but aside from getting a better human resource department (which a friend also following the story told me Wonderstorm did but I've heard nothing else about that), I don't know what could be done. Especially since the accusers said not to boycott the show since everyone involved besides Ehasz are genuinely nice people they don't want to see fail because of him.

Edited by IHOP on Jul 29th 2020 at 4:29:51 AM

I feel like the issue with Ehasz, and by all means please correct me if this seems off base, is two fold -

1. Ehasz was a terrible boss and ignored people to write what he thought would get the best reaction, but he didn’t do anything as egregious as say Warren Ellis and his alleged acts of sexual coercion. Since his biggest crime was being a terrible boss, a lot of people felt that he shouldn’t have been shunned in the way harassers and criminals are. Fixing bad corporate culture admittedly is a lot easier than dealing with an alleged sexual coercer in the methods available to do so.

2. No one protesting him was willing to ask Netflix to take the only step that could feasibly punish the man - Cancel the show and cease working with Ehasz and his studio. No one, not the protestors, not the accusers, and certainly not the fans, thought his crimes of being a terrible boss overrode that he wrote a Spiritual Successor to Avatar with strong female characters and LBGTQ+ representation. The fans went “#Give Us The Saga” and said the show was important. And since Ehasz owns the studio, him and “The Saga” are a package deal.

Edited by Beatman1 on Jul 29th 2020 at 9:57:11 AM

It's also possible Netflix told him that they didn't want any bad publicity, and that getting a decent HR department was a condition of renewal.

I hope that’s the case. I really do. It would make me feel a lot less awkward watching the show.

Same.

And possibly something of a little bit more mediation in the writer's room. I want to be clear I also come from a writer perspective and my works are my baby. I have friends in the writer's rooms of some productions that I actually can't name. I also write a lot of LGBT stuff and I'm terrified of that getting censored out. HOWEVER, editors and writer's rooms are NOT friendly suggestions. That is not at all how those work. Writing them off as just "friendly suggestions" will NOT make you friends and make you less likely to get published or get into writer's rooms in the first place. Editors will work with you and they won't do stuff for you, but they will flat out tell you when your worldbuilding is a bit confusing, tell you that the characters are kinda a bit flat and maybe not interesting enough, or when the adventures aren't quite interesting. They'll have your back on how to correct it and, yes, they might even listen to you and agree with you when you discuss things you. But they're ultimately there to get a job done.

I've tended to find that, 'most of the time, the writers are aware of these issues. I'll be clear here; I'm talking about the writers, not the showrunners. They've probably spent hours talking about them. But something else gets in the way and they can't correct the problem or it's a problem too ingrained in the pacing or plot of the season that correcting it would undo too much of what's already done. Or, most commonly, a showrunner or exec somewhere doesn't think the issue is important enough to be worth correcting.

But, no, writer's rooms and editors and proofreaders aren't "friendly suggestions". A proof-reader can mark you're entire chapter in red ink of grammar and structural problems and it's not a "suggestion" to correct them. You correct them or you'll just get the same criticism on a much larger and harsher scale.

Again, there is a give and take to this; it could be completely the other way around and a writer doesn't want to deal with a gay character and the showrunner is putting their foot down that, no, there's a gay character and deal with it. Or an editor thinking a book might be too niche and unmarketable unless you made the leads a white cis breading pair. People can be wrong about things. But it has to be collaborative and having a writer's room that not only sees and wants to correct some issues, but now having a showrunner who will be toxic if you just try to do your job... That's not a healthy environment and I'm genuinely surprised it's not worse as is and would not be shocked to hear of other stories being kept under wraps for now.

This is veering way off from what we actually know. Two former Wonderstorm staffers have indicated that they thought the company was a toxic workplace. Neither has given much detail, but did indicate that they felt they weren't listened to in the writer's room. Neither was a writer. One was an assistant to a writer, another was the social media/twitter manager. We've been told that he badmouthed an employee that had been terminated (which is bad behavior for an employer, definitely), and that he was smug about winning a vote as to whether or not they should use a shot of Runaan and Ethri kissing in their promotional materials (he was in favor of it, the twitter manager felt it was inappropriate because the characters haven't gotten a happy ending yet). There are harsher stories coming an editor that worked under him at Riot Games, but that's wrapped up in a disagreement as to what their shared boss said her role was, and a disagreement between her and Aaron (and their shared boss) as to how much an editor should be able to change a writer's writing.

It's certainly possible that he dominates the conversation in the writers' room (if you watch the interviews he's clearly extremely passionate and will talk your ear off about the series). I don't think that's wrong for a showrunner. He definitely does need to listen to different viewpoints. The head writer, Devon Giehl, is a queer woman who has expressed that she's had a much easier time getting her ideas in this show than in previous stuff she's worked on.

With the exception of the story of him asking an employee to keep an eye on his kid for a few hours back at Riot (VERY inappropriate, even if you think you have a "we're friends, right?" relationship with your staff), none of this strikes me as much more than him needing to learn that when you're in charge you have to act professional or it will create bad blood.

@Ink I didn't say it's a "friendly suggestion." I said you have the final say over everything if you aren't working for anybody else. How things play out is another matter entirely, but the point stands about things when you're the one in command and have the final say. And why you have the final say. If you think I don't care about feedback, then you might have misunderstood what I wrote. Or I miscommunicated. I also don't believe you should just follow every single bit of feedback, but that's neither here nor there. It's an entire conversation of philosophy that goes beyond my original statement and has nothing to do with The Dragon Prince.

I'll return to my core, original point after the follow...

@D1 Is that it? I've been trying to figure out everything with this and been hearing mostly emotionally rich things, people throwing various accusations and reaching conclusions (while never getting specifics, which threw me off) and that's been my point of confusion with the writer's room stuff. I haven't dug as deep as I could; I have more personally significant uses of my time to care about behind the scenes drama. Regardless, I don't see the point in treating someone who is not in the writer's room as equally valid as those who work for it. Especially if it came down to a vote as opposed to him just having all the deciding power.

I know about the smug thing and such, which is what I didn't consider cool, but I didn't consider it worth all the "he's this evil boss!" stuff. I thought there was something way, way worse going on but this all seems mild at worst if the above is all that is to it. Nothing I consider worth remaining upset about and letting it overshadow how hyped it is that the series has been renewed for four more seasons.

Beyond that, I don't see anything wrong with him being the one to make the final decision or having the most power in this particular scenario given how & why the power came into existence. I'm not commenting on the rightness of the decisions (I disagree with the logic for the posture, though not because I care about anything someone might read into it. I disagree with doing it because of seeking praise from its existence), just that I think someone who founded and runs a company should have a major say in the direction taken regardless of how popular they might be with some people.

Also, if there is a head writer now who is openly saying they've had an easier time presenting ideas as well as has the voice which those who are critical of things wanted to be included, why is this topic a concern?

To me, it seems like all of this has all been settled by the people actually involved. HR exists & is hopefully helping with any issues. Furthermore, it doesn't appear any of the complaints are coming from those whose job is to actually be part of The Writer's Room. The series likewise isn't bad or anything (far from it), so I don't understand why this is still a concern.

Edited by Prime_of_Perfection on Jul 30th 2020 at 1:09:34 PM

Frankly, this all seems like a lot of he-said-she-said? When the accusations first dropped I thought it was a #Me Too! case from how people spoke about them, but actually getting to what the accusations were wasn't easy and now it's mostly that he was somewhat unprofessional in dealing with some employees and some writer-adjacent people in the staff felt he didn't take enough feedback? It's kind of a mess.

Honestly until i read this threat i was convinced he had groped some woman at the workplace or something on that level by the way people were talking about it. With what seems to actually have happened i find it pretty scary...

Scary in what way?

In the way how easy it is to shift opinions (or in this case just my opinion), based only on how people talk about stuff. In this case it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but if i'd try to confirm the truth for every accusation i come across online i couldn't do anything else and most likely still wouldn't succeed.

If I remember correctly, the accusations came out around a similar time that the Castlevania Showrunner's skeletons got pulled from the closet so claims might have gotten mixed between the two.

What no, Dragon Prince thing is from last year I think... Either way around time season 3 was released

Edited by SpookyMask on Aug 4th 2020 at 10:12:29 PM

With all the people coming out and revealing their bosses' dirty laundry, it becomes kind of a blur after a point.

From my perspective, that's all the more reason to be careful with all this, given how easy it is to get swept up in unearned vitriol.

At any rate though, to get back to what this was all about before drama sidetrack, YES, 4 MORE SEASONS! Weren't there other things planned alongside the seasons? I feel like there were, but I can't recall.