Needs Help: Characters.Puyo Puyo

Current page refers the main villain as his Japanese name, Satan. I suggest we switch it to his English counterpart, Dark Prince, in accordance to official materials.

Though the series had left Japan only a few times (so far), Dark Prince's name is one thing kept consistent between the games (NGPC port, GBA Puyo Pop, 3DS collection). Now that the recent release of Puyo Puyo Tetris has solidified this relevance once again, it's time to keep the pages up to date.

Also be informed that Puyo Puyo Tetris rectified some of characters' name (Raffina, Lidelle, Ocean Prince), which community quickly adopted, so I believe this one will settle comfortably as well.

I'll open this, but you don't really need TRS to fix these sorts of issues, as long as there's consensus among people who edit the article. You can use the thread to establish that consensus, though. Make sure you send PMs to anyone involved so they know to come here.

edited 22nd Jun '18 7:24:28 AM by Fighteer

I made an edit by myself a while ago, but it got reverted back last time I checked, which is why I decided to bring this up here.

Since we have a TRS for this page, I might as well raise the issue that its subpages have a lot of problems with trope indentation.

I'm fine with keeping the name for Satan as is, over "Dark Prince." It's what we all, in the Puyo fandom, call him anyway.

I am also in favor of keeping Satan as is. As Amethyst Leslie said above, it's what the Puyo fandom calls him anyway and no amount of localization will change that.

It should probably be kept as Satan (Dark Prince) because the dub itself has been inconsistent and used both (see Sonic Runners).

Even Sega themselves has acknowledged both names through Tsu's appearance on the Sega 3D Classic Collection. He's referred to mostly as the Dark Prince in the manual, but he is said to be Satan (Dark Prince) in the character bio section (and simply Satan in-game due to Tsu not being translated into English for the collection).

edited 22nd Jun '18 11:08:02 AM by DragonGeyser

I'm in favor of keeping it as Satan (Dark Prince). While some other characters indeed got different English names, Satan is different from them. They haven't so much changed his name as they have started calling him by his title instead. This is acknowledged in the dialogue where he is referred to and refers to himself as "the" dark prince.

Ex: In Japanese, Arle and Shezo break Rulue out of her mind-controlled state by chanting "Sa-Tan" over and over again.

In English, they chant "Rulue loves the dark prince!" instead.

He's the Dark Prince of Hell, y'see. It's just a bit of odd, seemingly religious censorship in a child-friendly game. This is also the reason the community largely still calls him Satan.

@6: Sticking to the Japanese name just because older part of community preferred it doesn't sound like convincing argument. Puyo Puyo Tetris is an entry point for many players now, so why should we keep ignoring the localization and alienate the site from newer fans?

@7: Sonic Runners is an odd case in that the event happened before Sega decided to develop the export version again (last time being Fever around 2004), so whoever decided it supposedly had to make up leeway without supervision. Besides, as mentioned above, the actual games themselves got this consistent.

@8: If Sega acknowledges the both names, doesn't it imply that, as an English community, it's natural for us to use our spoken language? Keep in mind that Dark Prince's both names are included in the manual for clarification purpose, as the port itself couldn't be translated due to technical issue.

@9: It's understandable that it sounds awkward to those used to the Japanese version, considering there's a huge gap between the international releases, but the localization will take over as time goes on, especially within young audience who didn't hop into the series before. There's technically no official explanation of why any characters in first arcade game had their name changed, but even if that's the case (as was in many 90s anime/manga adaption), that doesn't give us an excuse to keep disregarding it.

You can still call him whichever name you like. I'm saying that, in case of formally writtien pages here, the English adaptation should be first in terms of priority.

It's not just the older fans. Some newer fans in the English Puyo Puyo Community Discord who never played anything older than Puyo Puyo Tetris are calling him Satan instead of Dark Prince. I also believe that for now a majority have spoken out against altering Satan's folder to his English name going first.

It's not as if both names are not on the page, and the Prince of Darkness isn't a common euphemism for Satan. I think people are smart enough to figure it out.

@11: On top of that a Discord server resided by a few thousands doesn't necessarily represent (nor speak for) at least half a million people who purchased Puyo Puyo Tetris (basing this judgement on the fact that it sold nearly a million copies for Switch version alone), noting the status quo doesn't invalidate the point that it's going against currently established official medias.

@12: So in other words, doesn't it mean that audience can read the traits of Satan from Dark Prince's name as well? Can't see how it'd confuse people after the change if you claim holds true.

It doesn't make sense to use Lidelle or the long names for the Tetris characters, which are only used in the English version of Puyo Puyo Tetris, while ignoring Dark Prince, which is not only used there but every other English Puyo Puyo game since 1992.

It would be different if we were ignoring the dub names for everyone, but saying that "Ess" is okay and Dark Prince isn't amounts to trying to have your cake and eat it too. So the way I see it, we either go all in with the English names (and thus use Dark Prince as the primary name) or go all in with the Japanese names (in which case we go back to Rider, Raffine, and single-letter Tetris characters). No picking and choosing.

[edit] Regarding fandom precedent, once upon a time the precedent was that Jarne was Jan, Madou Monogatari I for the Mega Drive was called Madou Monogatari: Genesis, the English arcade game was fake and a whole bunch of characters made their first appearance in Puyo Puyo Sun. So I'm not particularly concerned about maintaining fandom traditions. This is about being consistent and doing what makes sense.

edited 23rd Jun '18 5:59:45 PM by LtQuattro

Once more I find myself siding against others...The 'all or nothing' approach to names

That's fine, as long as you're willing to admit that it doesn't make a bit of logical sense and that you're just going by what you think sounds cool.

I think that it's quite hilarious that there were quotes from the English version of Puyo Puyo Tetris that if you screencapped them would literally have "Dark Prince" listed but are attributed to "Satan" here. Meanwhile, "Lidelle" is listed as Lidelle just fine. It's a ridiculous double-standard and I struggle to think of another fanbase where this kind of thing happens.

edited 23rd Jun '18 10:06:41 PM by LtQuattro

I'd rather go the other route and list characters as Lidelle/Rider, Raffina/Raffine, and so on and so forth to reflect the old official Fever names than get rid of Satan's name. The dub's used both and the fans for the most part use Satan, not Dark Prince, to refer to the character.

That is interesting in theory, but in practice we'd have to rearrange stuff to accomodate that. Lidelle/Rider would have to be moved entirely from where it currently is on the character page for the Fever cast. Of course, that may just be me overthinking things...

edited 24th Jun '18 3:50:45 AM by CybranGeneralSturm

I don't think she needs to be moved as long as Lidelle is kept as her name first.

I think alternative names would fit on each character's profile (along with their first appearance, voice actors, etc.) if we're to include both. Then the pages can determine dominant term usage based on the current English media, since outside of Dark Prince/Satan, there doesn't seem to be dispute over what names we're using now. It's not like there's still someone who prefers to call Arle "Silvana" as in the first game.

So are we agreed to fix up the pages? I may start working on this weekend.

Hmm... maybe it can happen, but I have something to suggest: since there's disagreement over Satan/Dark Prince's name, how about he's just flat-out erased from the character page for until an agreement can be reached or until more Puyo Puyo games come out in English?

Edited by CybranGeneralSturm on Jul 11th 2018 at 4:27:20 AM

Uhh, no. You cant just outright erase a page because of a minor disagreement over a damn name...

Well, there goes that suggestion... To be honest though, the entire page wasn't going to be deleted, only Satan/Dark Prince's folder. He'd have the Un-person treatment.

Edited by CybranGeneralSturm on Jul 11th 2018 at 6:21:05 AM

I still don't see what the big deal is here. Both names are listed on his character tab, it's not as if the character is impossible to find. Getting rid of the folder over a minor dispute is way unnecessary.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 11th 2018 at 11:46:03 AM