Kumo Desu Ga, Nani Ka?

Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with being uncomfortable with her ruthlessness. Personally, I think her actions are justified but it's understandable to think a lack of concern in that context is a warning sign.

Well, unlike Ainz, she does have virtues and morals. I dunno how much I can talk about it but basically, you've just been shown one of her major flaws with a lack of mercy and proportionate response. Pretty soon you're going to see some of her major virtues highlighted. The contrast between the two is kinda defining for her future developments.

She's complicated. I neither claim that you should agree with her or like her. Me, I like her, but I think she's more often in the wrong than in the right while at the same time acknowledging that with her circumstances being what they are she can't be held entirely responsible for her actions.

Tbh I think a lot of my favorite characters are bad people so long as you understand why they're screwing things up. Like Kotomine in FSN or some of the villainess characters who are still kinda evil rather than goodie two shoes reincarnators.

Edited by Arha on Mar 23rd 2021 at 4:18:27 AM

There's two folds problems with that type of character; if they (or the audience) recognize what they're doing is wrong, then it begs the question of why won't they stop doing wrong things?

Its why Eren Yaeger became such a controversial character. Sure, you can understand on some level why they do the things they do, but it comes with the caveat of actually trying to justify their terrible actions.

Simple good and evil characters aren't as interesting admittedly, but there's a lot less mental gymnastics you have to go through to justify their actions.

Eren is kind of hilarious to me cause my sister and I spent since last December getting up to date on AOT and she was initially on team Eren, Armin and Mikasa until he used Pork as a nutcracker and she immediately disowned him lol

Its strange that they glossed over that scene, then. Yes, seeing it from the human side was dramatically effective, but it robs us of what was going on in her head for the whole proceeding. The title thing is interesting. I suppose that's what hero guy's friend turning heel was supposed to foreshadow.

Yakuzu: Oh, believe me, the average reader sure doesn't mind the bad things she does. I'm usually the one arguing that we should really be keeping the moral ambiguity in mind. Honestly, the thing is that she's not necessarily wrong. You could say that she's a pragmatist whereas someone like Shun and his brother are idealists. She wants to be efficient and practical while Shun wants to give everyone a chance, go for that fabled third option and so on. You can't say for certain that their preferred solutions are right or wrong because life is complicated, you know?

Anyway, Kumoko isn't evil. She does bad things, but generally for good or at least easily defensible reasons. Case in point, killing the dudes who burned down your house, are pointing weapons at you and don't speak a language you can understand. Sure, you can let them go, but choosing not to do so isn't evil.

Zero: Her perspective? "Hey look humans wait why is stuff on fire OH YOU MOTHERFUCKERS" and from here it's either WN: "You shits are dead" or LN: "Gonna punish you a little wait why is he dead? Eh, might as well commit to this, peace doesn't seem like an option." And then she eats the bodies yum yum it would be a waste to just leave them there.

...I bet the anime is kind of skirting around that one.

The anime showed it entirely from the human perspective and only mentioned the scene once afterward when Kumuko mentions she marked the humans that left. No mention of anything that happened from her perspective at all.

See, I brought up the Attack on Titan POV because its pretty much the same thing lol. Half of the fandom cheering him on as.... He actively commits genocide across the entire planet

and the fact that people are cheering for it is kind....uncomfortable.

Well, what can you do about the fans?

I find it understandable though. It's not clear if she's really wrong. It's kind of a mess either way and she's trying to help with The Situation. The story managed to go on hiatus again just before we could start really getting into the issues around everything and hopefully finding a way to make the solution to everything involve punching D in the face.

Edited by Arha on Mar 23rd 2021 at 8:32:57 AM

Its not so much a matter of right or wrong, but rather morality. It's easy to justify morally questionable actions when you convince yourself and others they're "right".

I'm not sure she's morally in the wrong either in the overarching plot. More like, whether she's right or wrong, she could really be doing more.

Sigh. I have to be super vague to avoid spoilers and I can tell it's doing a really bad job of explaining the situation. Can we either stop or take it to PMs where I can be a little more detailed if you want to continue?

Edited by Arha on Mar 23rd 2021 at 9:22:33 AM

Naw, I'll just keep watching and take your word for it.

For what it's worth, I feel like Kumo actually does what fans of Overlord or Attack on Titan say their own shows do - Kumoko is the main character, but you're not supposed to entirely view things from her perspective. There are things she assumes to be true that aren't true, things she knows that she doesn't explain to the readers, and so on. There's an intentional disconnect between her perspective and the reader's, even if she functions as the narrator for a majority of the series.

To be fair to Attack on Titan, the show doesn't exactly agree with him...mostly. There is a sense of that, while the motivation is sound, the actions being taken are a bit too extreme to be justified.

Overlord though almost completely assumes Ains is in the right, and you got a lot of the narrative trying to justify what he does, even while the things he does get progressively worse.

TBF, in Overlord the intent is less that Ainz is right, it's that it doesn't matter whether one is righteous or brilliant if their foe is much more powerful than them.

When the writer ranked the leaders in the series, he put Ainz at the bottom since he's working without a clue and depending on the raw power of himself and his subordinates.

Overlord assumes Ainz is in the wrong, actually, but just kinda rolls with it. I mean, it's got plenty to criticize, but Ainz is definitely supposed to be a weak willed loser.

Overlord operates under the idea that might makes right, so Ainz, being the mightiest, is right by definition. All his numerous personal flaws and the fact that he's the kiving incarnation of the Peter principle are irrelevant next to that.

Edited by Chaosjunction on Mar 24th 2021 at 11:26:32 AM

Hmm I was going to quibble but I think it's just force of habit. That's basically it. Ainz sucks but it doesn't matter because he has infinity power levels and there's nothing you can do about it. You either fall in line, die or watch as everything you care about is taken away from you.

How do I always end up defending Overlord? I don't even like it. I always find myself wanting to correct people who I feel dislike it for the wrong reasons. I don't understand.

Overlord essentially points out that the underdog heroes would need a ton of Plot Armor to succeed against the typical incredibly powerful Evil Overlord even if said Evil Overlord is a complete idiot. And it does so by not giving them that Plot Armor and showing what happens to them: they lose. They lose hard.

Edited by M84 on Mar 25th 2021 at 2:14:20 AM

I think we're getting a little far afield of the thread topic, just saying

Well, I hope the latest episode of the anime was handled by a guest director or something, because the direction was all over the place - weird key frames for fights, incomprehensible fight choreography, shots lasting too long. It was a mess all around.

Well at least the second half. I would say the first half with Kumuko was fine and it's amusing to see Kumoko acts without the "cute Kumuko" filter, especially when she's complaning.

It's been a day and I'm still upset about it.

The Kumuko section was great, it was interesting to see her interacting with humans in a not (completely) violent manner.

I especially loved when she started freaking out and it cut to their perspective

The fight for the human side was horrendous but the plot was interesting enough that I was able to overlook it, but I can understand why others wouldn't be able to.

So, latest episode as of 5/1/21: It appears our spider isn't the Demon Lord we've been seeing after all. Probably.