Complete Monster

To be frank, yeah. I believe in some ways it is heavily case by case aside from whether there is a genuine story narrative (and effort) to it.

Edited by AustinDR on May 30th 2020 at 6:41:04 AM

The problem with that approach is that it's invalidated by the No Such Thing as Notability/"this isn't a badge of honor" guidelines. If we only allow fanfics of a higher quality in it will be pointed out that writing quality does not determine what works have CM's and it will be the same as now, where basically any fanfic can get in no matter what, which I personally see as a major issue.

My point is you can still make a case by case on it. I get the concerns, but at the same time, simply put, if it comes to one that goes too far like having objectionable content, then we can pass that off as grimdark and reject it.

Yeah, you seem to be arguing against a weird theoretical where we just let everything fanfic in, instead of now, where we vet fanfic pretty strictly

As someone who's been really annoyed by this argument in the past, I'm not sure what to say here. The CM cleanup thread is not the quality police, and I detest attempts to institute a double standard when it comes to "amateur" works. OTOH, I legitimately have no idea how the minds of the people who write these MLP fanfics work, so all this arguing about authorial intent and "reimaginings" and whatnot feels kind of like it's chasing its own tail.

Honestly, I think what we're doing now is working just fine, but I'd like a way to stop this coming up every six months or so.

Edited by nrjxll on May 30th 2020 at 9:17:58 AM

I'd like to add something as a perpetual lurker who noticed the debate, which is that it just feels weird to be discriminatory against fanfics when looking for CMs. In my understanding, a character either is or is not a CM, just like any other trope, only CM is a bit more subjective. But that doesn't mean a character from a sloppily written fanfic is less valid as a CM than a character from an award-winning blockbuster movie; either all mediums are equal or there's some weird double standard shenanigans going on.

I can see the argument about Creepypasta as many of those are just about being as twisted and gory as possible and that can lead to the issue with a heinous standard or motivation or something. But if the fanfic isn't just a torture-fest and the character is a fleshed out character, well...shouldn't that be enough?

IDK. I have literally no stake in this, I just thought that, since the argument was taken off the main thread for more voices to be heard and the debate was drawing my attention, I should give my thoughts. I hope I don't come off as biased or something due to literally being in the process of writing a fanfic, but hey.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 30th 2020 at 10:20:58 AM

My input? Yes, we need a clear standard, but in some ways this is gonna be case-by-case forever. I personally think that if it's got a real plot and is genuinely different, even if that just means slightly Darker and Edgier, we're good. That said, yeah, if it is the original setting but Darker and Edgier we need some more scrutiny on that.

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on May 30th 2020 at 7:27:16 AM

I generally agree with erazor here. As for why this keeps coming up “every six months” that would be because no one ever writes good and firm rules on it. No one is saying we have to be the quality police but I don’t think we should be letting something dress up like Thomas the Tank Engine but all of the sudden he has to stop an ax murderer: that’s taking too much from a work with one tone and jamming it into a bizarre mess of a setting. I fail to see how that’s setting a double standard. If we wanna see this put to bed let’s vote on a grand finale for results and actually see them implemented beyond a vague line like “Reimagining the setting is fine.”

Yeah, in the hypothetical case, Thomas stopping an axe murderer would not be an instance of a reimagining of a work if it fails to deviate from the original thus suffering from Original Flavor.

So in other words, if the fic is still set in the canon work, not even the additions of more serious atrocities is enough to warrant calling it a "reimagining." Unless a work completely overhauls the original setting and there are blatant examples of it provided, then the work is acceptable. Otherwise, fics that are more in line with the original would be held in more scrutiny.

Edited by AustinDR on May 30th 2020 at 8:58:34 AM

How is this... not a quality judgment?

Actually, come to think of it, how is the whole tone thing not a quality judgment in the first place? Originally, all we were trying to do was get rid of the sort of plotless "Character A kills everyone in gorny detail" stuff that War Jay mentions (and the fan works page in general DID used to be infested with those). The No Ron the Death Eater rule also makes sense because that's essentially a complaining trope. But I can't actually remember any rationale for not allowing "Thomas the Tank Engine hunts a serial killer" (as an actual plot) beyond "that's stupid."

TBH I've felt (not just with this issue) that the thread has occasionally drifted into thinking one-size-fits-all rules are more important than they should be. Judging things on a case-by-case basis isn't a bad thing.

Edited by nrjxll on May 30th 2020 at 11:21:35 AM

Nrj, I tire of the aggression whenever this gets brought up. I recognize you're tired of this, so am I but that doesn't change the fact you've been hyper-aggressive about this topic since the start, I remember you jumping on me when I was new to the thread and claiming I didn't like my opinion being questioned out of nowhere, so please, let's tone it back. I think there's a clear difference between judging quality (one thing) and the fact a work lifts literally all of its materials from one setting to place it in a situation which you'd never see in the original (another thing). Those two distinct subjects and if we'd rather simply assess a fan fic which takes all of its components from an original work and places them in a... tonally unlikely scenario, I'm fine with that but again, my point is it should get written exactly as I'm saying here so we don't have the grey zone the last debate left us with.

...how is that post aggressive? I'm genuinely trying to understand the arguments here, because I have a vague recollection of this same point being brought up last time, but not of it getting an answer. (I can try and find the posts, if you want.)

I wasn't trying to say that the thread doesn't give fanfic EP's any thought at all, I think the thread does a good job of pointing out when a character doesn't make the cut and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. The problem with that isn't so much the thread as the sheer number of fanfic CM's that are put in that come from these "original flavor but everyone's an edgy axe murderer" sort of fics, and that reflects when you look at the fanfic section of the trope and just the sheer number of them.

And once again, I wouldn't have as much of an issue here if it wasn't for the fact that I really do think these fanfics are getting by on a loophole/technicality...the rules for the trope state "The fan work must be at least somewhat conducive with the original of the setting. If it pushes the standard of the setting too far to a point where it's ridiculous, we won't allow" which, imo the majority of these fics are clearly not conductive to their original settings tone whatsoever and should not be passing by because the rule is worded vaguely.

so tldr I'm basically with 43 here in that ideally I would like to purge some of the fanfic examples, but if the support is against doing that we should at least make the rule on this clear and not-vague.

Basically, I say that if a fic does not complete branch away from the source material, even with serious moments, they are more scrutinized. The OP will then have to demonstrate whether the fic is a complete reimagining or if it still strays too close to the original work.

Again going off 43's example of a hypothetical one where the fic is still within the canon setting but with an axe murderer in it. It wouldn't be like reinventing the work.

Edited by AustinDR on May 30th 2020 at 9:57:09 AM

That part makes sense, it just feels weird to be focused so much on the quality/genre/etc of the fic even if the character involved isn't breaking any of the rules on their own, and would fit if the work were in a more official medium. That's my big concern, personally; the possibility that some valid examples will get overlooked simply because of the quality of their fic rather than anything about the character themselves.

That kind of leans more towards "this fic is weird" honestly. I mean as for why there are so many MLP and RWBY fics? IDK, guess because it's a huge fandom that feel compelled to write fics?

Edited by AustinDR on May 30th 2020 at 9:59:01 AM

Again, quality isn't my concern and I'll take every point to emphasize that. If we get an amazingly written story about MLP having to stop someone from eviscerating every pony he comes across (won't be able to verify, I probably won't read it)... I'd say no on the basis of it almost trying to make an episode that's absurd by the standards of the work while just jamming it in with the same characters, themes, etc. Conversely, if they're made into detectives and have to hunt down a serial killer and the work is complete shit (again, I ain't gonna be the one verifying it): that's fine, it has gone off on its own route and satisfyingly divorced itself enough from the original setting. The "legitimate keeper" in said detective work serial killer is kosher in my book.

Yeah; ultimately speaking, if the fic is still based entirely on the original work and then tries to add darker elements which would fail to mend well with the source material, that is where I would say no. It is not a reimagining of the work; it is the same work and the added eviscerations or whatnot would not be enough. It's kind of like how people having the tendency of writing "lost episodes" on children's cartoons.

That's why I also mentioned "genre" as another potential reason people seem to be discounting specific fics. By quality I also didn't mean "is it well written or does it read like a blind toddler wrote it?", but more like...well, whatever would encompass this whole debate over things like a "new setting" or "grimdark" or something- the quality in terms of personal opinion about the plot and characters, rather than an objective fact about how well-written it is. I might not be articulating myself well, but I'm trying. Maybe quality was the wrong word to use.

IDK, like I said I have no stakes in this at all, just sounds like a weird line to draw. If that murderous pony the Mane 6 need to catch qualifies and the work has an actual plot and isn't just gore for the sake of it, I personally don't see a reason why the character should be ignored, "re-imagining" or not. Like, I don't participate at the thread or anything, ya'll know that, so there's probably something I'm missing. I just feel like since the trope is about the character, if the character qualifies...

As I said before, I don't really like the "reimagining" requirement, and feel like it should be just be judged like any other work.

And, I must ask, if it isnt about keeping Pointless Grimdark edginess stuff off the thread, then what is the reason for it?

I think your raising your points quite well and I fully agree.

Edited by Kylotrope on May 30th 2020 at 7:13:24 AM

Honestly, I'm completely in agreement with your position. I don't think you're expressing yourself poorly at all.

Edited by nrjxll on May 30th 2020 at 12:10:56 PM

If it's a fan work of Original Flavour and having actions taken that wouldn't happen in canon, I feel uncomfortable evaluating it like it's created its own thing. These are highlighted in the rules Wary pulled for us and I don't see what makes it such a strange standard when we're evaluating works that have chosen to lift all of their material, including themes and tones from one that already exists. Like I said, if you're just using elements of the story like they're your own, whether that's changing their personalities, the setting, whatever, I'm more than willing to be lenient on allowing whatever atrocities the author wants to throw in.

I have to agree there with 43.

So it was from farther back than I was thinking of, but I found the post I remembered on asking about why this whole thing is even a... thing.

(Paging ~Scraggle, since he wrote it.)

Edited by nrjxll on May 30th 2020 at 12:26:49 PM

...Huh. Very well-written post that covers my own (admittedly context-lacking) thoughts on the subject nicely.