Catalan Referendum

@Anti: Yes, the methods are thuggish are very counter-productive. That's why I said that the actions were both deplorable and, in the long-term, ineffective (and will cause a lot more political polarization than there already is - case in point, the recent climate that surrounded the general elections).

@WhatArtThee: The Spanish democracy and its institutions are still in need of becoming consolidated and being able to break whatever remnants of the Franquismo legacy exist. 40-something years of democracy are not enough for its institutions to acquire a balance and long-term stability. There's also the matter of the very history of Spain, which is very controversial in certain regions, so, there's cultural differences underneath the spirit of unity (national football team aside, and even then, some of its members in the past and present were for Catalan independence, though they managed to put their differences aside for the sake of sports success and team work).

It is 'easy/comfortable', perhaps, for certain British or American commentators (and some continental European commentators as well) to judge Spain very negatively, but the United Kingdom and the United States have unique systems that took time to acquire a certain balance and stability (and even then, they had to shed a lot of blood in the process, internally). Well, an 'easy' analysis is not often good in addressing the complexities within the political reality and perspectives within the whole of Spain (a conflict that even extends itself towards the areas of club sports).

Spain, fine? Nah. The political climate and the economic issues in recent years (including the consequences of their austerity program and the inability for parties to form a majority coalition or agreement government in regards to the general elections that happened a year or two ago) have exarcebated a lot of open and hidden problems and brought them to the very surface of political debates and discussions (some of them quite hostile).

There's also the fact that Spain had to deal with a long period of terrorism (coming from ETA), and some recent parts of history that were partially swept under the rug.

edited 1st Oct '17 5:16:03 PM by Quag15

As for the 40% turnout.

The turnout in the last referendum held in Switzerland (24.9.17) was a whopping... 46%. And we can just mail in our ballots. Considering the crackdown and illegitimacy of the Catalan referendum, 40% is actually impressive by Swiss standards.

What's funny is, there were a hundred different ways for the Rajoy gov. to question the validity of this referendum and still appear reasonable. It was, by all accounts, shoddily conducted & not properly observed). But no, they had to honor their party's roots and go full boot-in-the-face, losing any ethical "high ground" they might have had.

I can't say that most of that is useful in a modern context, with the most recent being the flag in 1801 and the legal questions going back to the 13th century. I'll worry when Plaid Cymru becomes the majority party in the Assembly and no independence referenda are brought to the table.

edited 1st Oct '17 5:32:09 PM by RainehDaze

I guess they wanna go with the times. It's the Trump era, Stupid Evil is en vogue.

Rajoy blamed ETA for the Madrid bombings of 2004. Rajoy spent 8 years as an oposition leader that brought nothing to the table, and his modus operandi since 2011 has been backwards francoism.

Opus Dei shit galore.

My opinion on the referendum and the Spanish government's response is similar to what Argentine writer and journalist Martin Caparrós commented on his twitter:

La crisis catalana tiene muchos matices. Pero {cuando} ves policías robóticos pegando a personas {que} quieren votar, los matices importan tan poco.

In English I'd translate that as "The crisis in Catalonia has a lot of nuance. But when you see robotic cops beating people who are trying to vote, the nuances matter very little." in my own words, there may have been things to argue about the referendum's legitimacy before, but the violent repression against the Catalans legitimizes their choice to go for independence.

All this shows that Spain is still going through a lot of growing pains. The legacy of colonialism and Francoism is tough to shake off.

Come to think of it, the world in general seems to be going through a particularly messy puberty.

Was listening to the radio this morning, and apparently Catalan unions are now talking about establishing general strikes, especially in the transport sector.

I have in general a low opinion about Referendums. And honestly, it might be better to fight for a better government in Spain instead of working on splitting apart. Nobody is helped by doing it, not even the Catalans.

In principle I've got nothing against referendums, in practice they're usually governed entirely too much by media perception and the inherently irrationality of people.

On the other hand, I find it hard to make the argument of 'fight to change the system' when the system is currently beating people senseless. How do you reform a system in which threats to its stability are answered with violence?

I mean, fuck the dubious legality of the referendum for a second, the minute the Spanish government decided that a proportionate response to this was police violence, they lost any and all moral high ground in this debate.

edited 2nd Oct '17 12:38:17 AM by math792d

I was wondering when they'd get around to that.

Yes. Please launch a general strike - more than a poll, that's how Catalonia's people can concretely show that they are on board with independence and are not willing to remain a part of Spain.

Ideally, yes, but they lack the votes to do that and Madrid has completely squandered its credibility with Catalonia. There's functionally no opposition - the PSOE has agreed to maintain unity over this issue instead of firing Rajoy's ass and demanding proper discussions.

edited 2nd Oct '17 12:46:57 AM by Ramidel

The PSOE may as well not exist, they already showed their true face in 2011, when they changed the constitution overnight with the PP. And lol Ciudadanos being anything but a Yes-Man to the PP. A Constitution and laws are there to serve the people, not to bind them to their government. But I guess those grown in the home of fascist rulers cannot grasp that concept.

UP is the only thing resembling an opossition, and, in any case, all they are doing is talking. Twitter support is nice, but insufficient.

Gimme a general strike, these francoists do not speak for me.

Catalan leader calls for international mediation in Madrid stand-off:

EU urges Spain to talk to Catalans, condemns violence:

Macron backs Spain's constitutional unity in call to PM Rajoy:

edited 2nd Oct '17 7:41:16 AM by Quag15

And my opinion of Macron gets even worse.

Your spouse beats you up in response of you filing for divorce. EU response: Violence is bad, but this is your internal matter and you should stay together.

No other response can be made. It was predictable.

edited 2nd Oct '17 8:12:00 AM by TerminusEst

Honestly, what did anybody expect out of Macron?

Anyway, just a trip around Spain will show how people will vote "the winners", and how anybody who deems themself as "bonafide Spanish" will look down on Catalonians ("penny pinchers who think they are better than me"), Basques ("terrorists who think they are better than me"), Galicians ("indecisive rednecks"), Andalusians ("lazy rednecks") and Portugueses ("towel-selling rednecks")... Well, Portugueses other than the ones that play at Real Madrid. Or how history seems to boil down to "glorious moor-killing battles" and list of kings.

I am ashamed. This is a textbook example of tribal thinking.

EDIT: Just now, a man has vandalized the HQ of the PP while wearing a Spanish flag as a cape. He branded them traitors and demanded more extreme measures against Catalunya. That's the level.

edited 2nd Oct '17 8:43:10 AM by Eriorguez

Not much, just condemning the police violence (my opinion of him was already low on account of his domestic policies). I guess that making the emergency state permanent (by setting most of the emergency measures into normal law) goes with police violence.

Traitors, huh?

almost reminds me of "death to traitors, freedom for Britain"....

Thing is that we can't really afford civil unrest in Spain in the current situation and if you actually look behind the Catalan referendum you end again with Russian money and Russian propaganda.

So the cops shooting rubber bullets at people who turned up to vote is okay because it curbs internal dissent?

I mean, the thing about saying 'Russian money' is that money isn't some magic token you can just rub on a region to create problems. They'll be exploiting and deepening a divide that's already there, same as everywhere else.

And if the response to a non-binding referendum (and even the Catalans themselves said it was non-binding) is very real politicized violence carried out by the state, and that's considered a legitimate response by the torchbearers of liberty?

I'd say that says a lot more about our willingness to sacrifice others to maintain an imagined national cohesion than it does anything about the shit-stirrers.

If the response to civil dissent is violence, why shouldn't the dissenters stoop to violence too?

Frankly, this smacks of authoritarianism.

And yes, the EU's response is milquetoast, but then, it's about what I expected. It's just more evidence that really, the police aren't here to protect and serve the public, they're here to protect and serve their paymasters.

edited 2nd Oct '17 9:55:34 AM by math792d

If western "democracies" respond with violence to a non-binding referendum, we might as well be ruled by Russia already for all the difference it makes.

When one side is in the wrong it doesn't necessarily mean that the other side is in the right. Catalonia already has a special status in Spain, it already has extra rights, but it is unhappy partly because it has a low opinion of the Spanish government - rightfully so, but then, you always get the leaders you elect, right? - and, and that is the rub here, because it doesn't want to keep paying for the rest of Spain, being a wealthy region. And I don't like the mind-set behind it, because if they successfully split off, it will hurt a number of normal people in Spain above everyone else.

edited 2nd Oct '17 10:04:04 AM by Swanpride