Darling In the FRANXX (Trigger/ A-1 Pictures collaboration)

I agree that memes are the best part of the show. Except Zero Two love memes, I still hate her, or her pre-Character Development self (she still look like she was brainwashed, but it was for the best)

I mean that it is a trope already, the lonely lesbian with a crush in a straight girl. Is a tired trope and mildly offensive when is used so much in all media.

edited 12th May '18 7:42:49 PM by KazuyaProta

@Kazuya: The idea that a bi character doesn't 'count' because he ends up in a heterosexual relationship, no matter how central his feeling about a guy are to his character arc, is an idea that needs to die in a fire and frankly I'd expected better of you than to bring that up as a serious point.

As for Ikuno- as I said, it's very important that the proud lesbian was the one who got the last word in the argument about the merits of gender. The narrative very much ended up on her side- there is not meant to be anything wrong with being gay- instead, the main argument given against a genderless society is 'then being gay wouldn't mean anything, and fuck that noise with a rusty spoon'.

edited 12th May '18 7:45:29 PM by Gilphon

Yeah, I know. Still, it's much easier to meet people nowadays. Just imagine...

"Lonely, book-loving girl seeks girlfriend, preferably short, blue-haired, authoritative yet easily flustered..."

Anyway, I think both of you have equally valid views of this - I suppose time will tell where the show itself falls.

I think someof you guys need to go back ans rewatch the episode, particularly the scene after Nine-Alpha's little rant. Nana's talk with Kokoro provides some key context here: Alpha wasn't talking about gender as a social construct or an orientation, he's talking about gender as in biological sex.

APE's not trying to stamp out heteronormativity, they're trying to turn people into literally sexless and nearly-robotic drones who seemingly exist for no other reason than to keep their society going. Note how the city is designed to look like a beehive. Note how that old woman and her "partner" haven't interacted with each other in any way for years depsite living in the same appartment. Note how Nine-Alpha all but outright states that Nana's gone through some kind of drugging/brainwashing to keep her emotions in check.

This isn't the show's creators saying het is good and everything else is bad, this is classic dystopian shit. Look at Nineteen Eighty-Four:

This is what APE is doing.

As you can say, we arent even sure that he really had romantic feelings for Hiro. Which is kinda of the issue.

And about Ikuno being the one that went agains the idea of a genderless society, yeah, I can give you a point.

I still think that the whole writing is messy

You arent understanding the issue, we know that APE is bad In-Universe.

The Unfortunate Implications are still strong, with The Nines being all more ambiguously sexually than our heroes.

And to be fully honest, becoming sexless robots is not really a big negative.

Add that a lot of Bigoted Cisgender Straight persons are so crazy that actually believe that Trans people and "Liberals" are trying to create a Sci-Fi dystopia where no-one will have sex.

edited 12th May '18 7:56:07 PM by KazuyaProta

From a sci-fi perspective, the basic concept isn't necessarily all that different: A dystopian future where the roles of gender, sexuality, family, etc. have been manipulated to serve a sinister purpose, where the main characters try to survive and (presumably) find out the truth.

The Franxx system, as it turns out - and specifically the main characters - is an attempt to regain those attributes of humanity before they were manipulated, doing so by basically going back to basics, which means biological reproduction. However, Ikuno does complicate this framework, and I think how her storyline is handled will determine how well this all sticks.

Y'know, there wasn't the slightest amount of pushback to the idea of Mitsuru having a crush on Hiro before this episode.

And now, because it's unambiguous that he's attracted to girls, suddenly I'm having to fight tooth and nail to defend it. Suddenly we 'aren't sure' and talking about how messy the writing is on that point.

So, I mean, yes, I do think the fact that we're having this debate says something. I do not, however, think it says anything about the writing. I couldn't say what I actually think it says without getting somewhat ruder than I'd like to. Frankly even this post is pushing it, but I feel like it needs to be said.

I will have to agree with you anyway. This is getting out of hand

I mean is sex really that important?

edited 12th May '18 8:00:07 PM by slimcoder

We found you Papa

And personally...yeah, is not something so important in the grand scheme of things. A lot of things can fill the void and in a society that dont know sex, no one would care about that.

edited 12th May '18 8:01:28 PM by KazuyaProta

• sigh* We wouldn't even be having these conversations if this series didn't take itself so damn seriously...

For you, maybe. Personally, I'm not down with the idea of giving up my identity to become a faceless, interchangeable cog in Papa's machine.

Exactly. I'm looking forward to seeing what the show does with her, hopefully for good rather than ill.

I think it's pretty clear that he's meant to be bi, personally.

We talk about gender itself, not Papa Obviously Evil system

That implies sex gives you meaning.

I mean there are other things one can do.

edited 12th May '18 8:05:21 PM by slimcoder

While I'm absolutely in favor of Mitsuru being bi, and will probably headcanon him as such if the show doesn't go out of its way to disprove it (or even if it does, quite frankly), it might be worth asking as to whether the subtext was unintentional.

I mean, it exists - I have no doubt about that. But is it a possibility that the writers didn't quite know what they were doing here?

I think it might be, but that being said, piloting a FRANXX has been used as a metaphor for sex for quite a bit now, and considering how Mitsuru expressed a desire to pilot with Hiro when he was younger...wow, if that was unintentional, then that's some incompetence right there.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was intentional. The question, then, is if whether Mitsuru is supposed to be bi, or the whole thing was just a "childish misconception", or whatever they'd call it.

As a side note/ topic shift; the preview made it look like there was gonna be a pseudo-marriage between Hiro and Zero Two. I'm mildly disappointed that didn't happen.

Likewise.

Watched ep 17.

...That was it? That was what people are getting upset and offensded over?

I'm all for social progess and all, but even I think this was a bit overblown in terms of backlash on here.

I loved Hiro having tiny horns with ablue tint confirming he'll get full sized ones eventually.

I just thought of something, actually.

The scene in the opening where Zero Two merges with Hiro will be quite literal in the story, in the style of Serph and Sera from Digital Devil Saga, and thats when Hiro will get fully grown horns.

Zero Two being sterile supports this as well.]]

edited 12th May '18 8:49:07 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Welcome to modern day gender issues, where everything can be debated.

Not to downplay or be be offensive to anyone

Same.

I just want Zero Two and Hiro to have a nice happy ending and be together. Something that's never happened in a Trigger or Gainax show. Just look at Luluco, TTGL, and Kill la Kill (not that the people getting separated here were a couple but a pair did get separated by death). No death, no fusion of existences, just let them BE together.

Luluco's Kaworu clone is still out there. She'll find him.

I really liked the episode, but that's mostly on Kokoro and Mitsuru's relationship developing than with the narrative progress in itself. The implications that the Nines are here to act as an evil Strawman of the socially progressive position seem a reach to me, both sex and emotions are to be stamped out in the name of Papa, last I checked Stoicism wasn't really en vogue in progressive circles.

You know, Progressive Stoics would be actually be a massive plus

Stoicism in general would be a plus.

Those weird criticism where somehow being Leftist make you a unemotional robot make Leftists look better than what they are.

Geez, I never had feel that sensation anywhere else than in SMT

And about why everyone here acts like if the Nines are a strawman for progressives is pretty easy. Nines Alpha did have a speech about how Gender roles are outdated while our heroes want to return to them, the implications are pretty obvious

edited 12th May '18 10:44:16 PM by KazuyaProta

Well, gender roles don't always have to be portrayed that negatively.