That One Boss and That One Level cleanup.

There is a very good chance any trope like that will either get killed in TLP or by the mods.

Also, where did you hear this?

Edited by Karxrida on Sep 24th 2020 at 5:26:49 AM

After some more thinking, I feel that the number one reason to not have the Advanced Challenges on the page is because they're time-limited content. This means that at this point, it's impossible for anyone to actually go and verify that the challenge was that hard.

So I noticed the Bloodborne has a lot of Bonus Boss examples like the Defiled Watchdog, the Bloody Crow and all the DLC bosses.

I brought this up on the Bonus Boss discussion page, but I was thinking of making a Bonus Boss subpage for Dark Souls and Bloodborne, so tropers can discuss the difficulty of the optional boss fights like Nameless King or Kalameet

Edited by SithPanda16 on Sep 25th 2020 at 11:39:13 AM

Honestly I'm still of the opinion that a lot of Bloodborne bosses need to be cut, and anything that is a Bonus Boss isn't supposed to be listed at all.

Edited by mr_allen on Sep 25th 2020 at 1:45:52 PM

I still consider that an extremely arbitrary standard, and don't know why most B Loodborne bosses need to be cut if people who wrote the entries consider them difficult, even by bonus standards.

The DLC should honestly be held held to its own standard as it's completely separate from the main story, so four out of five bosses being listed is really way to much for whats supposed to be outliers. As for watchdog most opinions I've seen puts him as the most noteworthy part of getting the trophy, most people put Amygdala (the one from the same dungeon, not the normal one) as harder.

EDIT: this is on the Atlus page but not the main page for some reason, but Bonus Bosses don't actually have a standard, hence the whole bonus part of their name.

Edited by mr_allen on Sep 25th 2020 at 2:03:33 PM

The thing is the DLC has a rep for being very hard. People can find different bosses to be standouts on a YMMV page. If someone was listing the Living Failures, then there'd be an issue, but Ludwig, Maria, the Orphan and Laurence have reputations of being difficult even by From Soft standards.

Unless there's grievous misuse I don't really see why the curation of bosses people fond to be difficult is really necessary?

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 25th 2020 at 11:08:10 AM

That's the thing though, the point of That One Boss is that these are outliers to the game. If the entire game is hard then the only examples should be what is hard by even that standard. YMMV isn't personal opinion, it's general consensus. If it was personal opinion then every boss from every game could be listed as for every boss out there there is also a person that struggled with them

Edited by mr_allen on Sep 25th 2020 at 2:23:22 PM

There's a blend of the two here. But YMMV is absolutely mixed with opinion and interpretation in many tropes.

Different people find different things harder and the community consensus backs that up. Because From Soft has a rep for games being very, very difficult. Not sure why a group of DLC bosses seen as insanely difficult even by those standards is such a huge deal.

The trope definition is very simple. I'm not seeing a need to resort to slippery slope as nobody is remotely suggesting to list every boss.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 25th 2020 at 11:25:52 AM

Imma be straight: can we please stop bringing up the From Software games? Half this thread is dedicated to discussions about them that either don't go anywhere or just make things worse. I read so many weird arguments that make no sense when you think about it for more than three seconds, like "the game's hard on purpose, therefore nothing counts", or "hey let's cut the most infamous boss in Dark Souls just because you can summon a dude to deal with it". There isn't even that many bosses on the list - this game has, like, over 50 of them, counting minibosses and Chalice Dungeons. Ten is nothing. Laurence is the only one who's suspect because he leans closely to Bonus Boss status - but even then, Bonus Boss seriously needs a trip to TRS because of how horrifically butchered it is currently, so I would not use that as grounds to cut.

Edited by DocSharp on Sep 26th 2020 at 3:06:08 AM

That's the point of this cleanup though, to figure out what is and isn't allowed. Do we consider side bosses bonus bosses or no? How do DLC bosses count? Bloodborne for example only has a max of 9 bosses to beat the game out of the 38 (including chalice dungeons) so where do the other 29 sit? the DLC itself only has 5, of which 4 are required to clear but what standard do we hold the DLC too? Itself or the main game? Dropping the discussion just because nothing has been answered is counter productive. And it is stated on the main page that every boss can't be listed.

As I said, Bonus Boss is currently hell. It is supposed to refer to a hyper-lategame boss that's meant to be ridiculously hard and not easy to find, but it is currently knee-deep in Trope Decay and people seem to think it refers to "any remotely optional boss ever". People insist on treating it like an excuse to delete examples constantly. Even off this thread, it's a serious problem plaguing the entire trope that nobody wants to acknowledge. In reality, Laurence is the only boss in Bloodborne that even comes close to the actual criteria for Bonus- oh screw it, I'm calling it BoBo. He's the only boss that even comes close to being a BoBo; everything else is objectively fair game for listing, from minibosses to Chalice Dungeons to the DLC.

And the thing is, we've dealt with this page already. Twice. And we dealt with Dark Souls as well. More than twice, in fact. I was personally responsible for getting the DLC bosses cut from both (under faulty reasoning, mind you), and Lighty up there had to fight tooth and nail to put them back. This is a resolved item. I really don't want to deal with this page again, especially since all attempts at dealing with it have involved very sketchy interpretations of the rules that were supposed to get fixed months ago, and especially since some people have apparently been acting against consensus and deleting examples on both this page and the Dark Souls page for being - wait for it - alleged breaches of the BoBo rule, without informing this thread.

I gotta go to sleep, but I'll be back. I apologize if I came off as a grump or anything.

Edited by DocSharp on Sep 26th 2020 at 4:34:55 AM

I am of the opinion that we should NOT be using Bonus Boss to refer to "any optional boss" and should only be used for "optional bosses clearly meant to be a greater challenge than anything else in the game."

I'm also of the opinion that such bosses should also not be allowed on That One Boss since they are meant to be a harder challenge to overcome than the rest of the game.

Yeah, the term I've always seen on the internet to refer to what Bonus Boss is supposed to be used for is "superboss" (which is actually a redirect to the page). If a wick check is done, I bet a rename would be really easy.

Edited by Serac on Sep 26th 2020 at 9:53:10 AM

Can we stop the "not every boss can be listed" thing? It's a strawman. No game has come close to having that.

What I find frustrating is this trope has gone from a very simple definition to this when it never seemed misused to begin with

A while ago the staff was having an internal discussion where there were concerns that cleanup threads sometimes trend to groupthink and arrogating themselves an authority on the wiki that they don't have. Seems like we might be drifting into that territory if folks are being unduly stingy with fairly simple concepts.

For years, my impression was...a Bonus Boss is a simple descriptor. It's a boss that's bonus content, without any indication of difficulty, since it can encompass a sidequest boss.

That One Boss is YMMV because it's meant to describe consensus on individual difficulty. For all the fears of misuse I've been told, there was no issue for years on people listing the most difficult of game bosses, certainly no attempts to list all of them. The whole cleanup just seems to have introduced new layers of difficulty in qualifying for a simple trope that never seemed to have much by way of difficulty or misuse.

The thing that kicked this cleanup thread to begin with was someone taking an overly literal issue that some games had more than one example of this. Then it just spiraled to "I don't find this that hard." and a whole list of esoteric and frankly bizarre qualifications.

Sorry, when I was talking Bonus Boss that was mostly towards Laurence. I was bringing up the DLC since it was decided when to allow DLC it should be held it to its own standard, almost like it's its own game. And in this case almost every boss is listed which is against the definition.

There's only a few bosses in the DLC, and they're known for being inventively difficult in different ways. Orphan of Kos is widely held to be the hardest boss From Soft had created before Sekiro.

Why are we taking the DLC as just its own game and not part of Bloodborne with like 50+ bosses, to begin with? Again, it just seems strange to me how these discussions go and the standards seem arbitrary.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 26th 2020 at 12:46:47 PM

I feel like we should rename Bonus Boss to Brutal Bonus Boss, similar to Brutal Bonus Level to avoid confusion

Ok so I've created a bonus boss page for Dark Souls and Bloodborne I've gone to the edit history of both That One Boss pages and salvaged some of the deleted edits that were considered bonus bosses.

I really don't know why the distinction is even too necessary.

Bonus Boss: A boss that's optional and for you to seek that

That One Boss: The ones who are really difficult.

Oh jeez, everything's all over the place:

• Since nobody's really given you a good answer to this question yet: Bonus Boss is explicitly meant to refer to hyper-lategame, nigh-unbeatable Final Fantasy-esque superbosses. The description acknowledges it and has been unchanged for over a decade, but for some reason people insist on emphasizing the "optional" aspect with no regard for difficulty. The two are segregated because BoBo is supposed to be a sub-trope to this one — I.E. we're just organizing stuff to make sure it goes in the right place — but the entire reason we're in this mess is that the criteria for TOB didn't update to compensate for BoBo's Trope Decay.

• Sith, why did you do that? I outlined right up there that 1) BoBo should not be touched because it's crap right now, 2) people keep tweaking the page without consensus, like you just did, and 3) even under the current criteria, Laurence was the only thing remotely suspect, not over half the page. You outright should not have done that.

Edited by DocSharp on Sep 26th 2020 at 4:57:51 AM

It may seem arbitrary but lines do need to be drawn somewhere, otherwise things are just going to end up coming back here and we're just going to constantly argue over them.

x4 So I received a notification that a Bonus Boss page is being created today, but all of the entries are imported from That One Boss and are definitely not objective. In my experience, this kind of move never ends well (which is exactly what happened to that troper who thought it'd be a good idea to move pruned That One Boss entries to SNKBoss.Dark Souls and promptly got grilled for it).