Reinvention Ideas For DC/Marvel Characters

Here's an idea I've been mulling over recently...

A young Amazon discovers that she's a transsexual, and prays to the gods to make her a man. They do so (they do have a history of doing that kind of thing sometimes, after all) and as such, she (now, he), must leave Themyscira and journey into Patriarch's World. It'd be an interesting perspective to try to imagine, someone raised in an entirely female society discovering that they themselves aren't female, as well as seeing what the Amazons and Wonder Woman's reactions might be.

I assume that's meant for a continuity where the Amazons aren't immortals who've been around since ancient times? 'Cause while it can take a while for someone to figure out their gender identity, several millenia is a bit much.

What would the gender difference entail? In myths, Amazons were already built on the idea of women acting like men, what with the fighting and the wearing of armor etc. For that matter, what would the very concept of male gender be for someone raised in an all-female environment. Considering the use-for-breeding-and-dispose cliche, I somehow doubt any Amazon would want to check out that lifestyle.

I'm thinking more that Steve Trevor's arrival would present a general shake-up of Amazonian mores, with a number of Amazons wanting to act like him, more in his capacity as a foreigner than a man, but Wonder Woman in particular has already got dibs on exploring man's world like that.

Speaking of which, the two things I'd change about her are her ability to fly, and the invisible jet. For one, I like the idea of Amazonian martial training being the main source of her innate abilities, with most other powers being granted by equipment. If she has to fly, there's Hermes's sandals - put some wings on her boots and call it a day. And as for the jet - well, let's just say it doesn't exactly fit the Hellenistic theme she's got going for her. Some other mythical item like Hades's helmet would serve the same purpose, bonus being that, like the sandals, it's already an established mythical artifact.

I think it could be workable if it happened in ancient times, and the now-male Amazon in question had been operating in Patriarch's World since, or the Amazon in questions's realization of his gender identity could indeed have been sparked b contact with Steve Trevor as Indiana suggests.

You're assuming things about gender identity that may not be facts; as far as I know, how a given gender is viewed by one's culture doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether one is or is not a transexual. From what I understand, too, it's not a matter of wanting, but of realizing the truth about oneself. And while the Amazons live apart from men, it's not as if they've never seen them and don't know what they are. As to the rest, this would be happening among DC's Amazons, not the mythological ones.

It's not something that you hear much about in regards to the DC's Amazons anymore, but they were supposed to be extremely technologically advanced; they had aircraft, firearms, radios that worked on mental telepathy, television communicators, healing rays, etc. That said, I do think it's be cooler if Diana just had Hermes's sandals instead of being able to fly on her own, or with an invisible jet.

edited 12th Jun '17 10:00:32 PM by Robbery

I'm not really assuming anything, I just want to know what the objective differences would be in terms of attitude and characterization. Realizing the truth about oneself is part and parcel for superhero stories, but usually it involves shooting laser beams out of one's eyes or something. I noted Steve Trevor's arrival as it can present a sort of moment of clarity, with the Amazon in question finally going "This is what I feel like" after years of self-doubt... Question is, what is "this" in particular?

I actually wouldn't mind that idea. It actually does happen in continuities of the Amazons rejoining the rest of the world.

As for the plane, well the original WW comics were fantasy kitchen sinks mixing sci fi and fantasy elements. It still is to an extent. I too like the idea of the martial arts training powers returning.

Speaking of Steve, I'd put him and Etta in charge of a UN backed super team. Basically a "legit" Suicide Squad. Diana could even suggest some Amazons join to help further reintegration.

edited 12th Jun '17 11:01:21 PM by windleopard

Yeah, Steve is one of my top candidates for reasonable authority figures in DC. I mean, Waller is iffy at best, Sam Lane has become a Thunderbolt Ross expy, Mister Terrific (who I have to keep reminding myself not to call Mr. T) is flexible enough in his role as Checkmate King... can't think of anyone else right now.

In general, I've gotten tired not so much of the idea that upper management exists only in an antagonistic and obstructive capacity, but rather, that the usual resulting storyline of betrayed agents gone rogue is the most overused cliche in action history. Is it that difficult to have a general purpose Men in Black style team that works in conjunction with the capes rather than against them? My initial good impression with the MCU was quite a bit due to the idea of S.H.I.E.L.D. serving as coordinators for the Avengers, with Coulson representing the more-or-less average Joe holding his own in a world of gods and monsters.

For that matter, what attracted me to superheroes in the first place was the idea that all those cool fights and world-spanning adventures were nothing special in the context of the world. The moment writers get too full of themselves about how superheroes are not like anyone else, either playing it for drama or just glorifying their preferred pets, the actual potential for storytelling diversity gets crippled.

King Faraday? Maybe Rick Flag. I suppose you could say Jim Gordon depending on how "reasonable" you think him letting Batman operate is.

Etta also fits reasonable authority figure in the WW Rebirth comics too.

edited 13th Jun '17 1:02:19 AM by windleopard

In my revised DC Universe I use Martian Manhunter for that role in of main DC Authority Figure over super hero activities; especially when he is in his John Jones identity. It seems fitting really given his frequent role as chairman of the Justice League and serving as the team's mission control throughout most of his career. After all DC is more larger than life compare to Marvel, so why not have the guy in charge of all super heroes affair be a super hero instead of just a mortal man.

edited 13th Jun '17 1:10:47 AM by BigK1337

There's a subtle difference in theme and consequently tone. Having a civil organization and leadership operate on equal terms as superheroes sends the message that the capes are still wiling and able to work alongside the law, and in turn, that ordinary people with sufficient training and equipment can hold their own. Having the organization be cape-led itself eventually results in glorification for its own sake, clashes with civil institutions, and, eventually, the current situation of superheroes fighting authorities rather than supervillains.

Still, it would be interesting to have J'onn as an authority figure in a civil institution itself, kinda like how Alan Scott was White King of Checkmate. He could be Agent M. Or indeed, even a sort of M. It's not often you get a metahuman (or Martian in this case) acting as mission control for non-superpowered operatives.

Exactly. Out of all the leaguers, J'onn seems like the right person for the job to handle civic duties for the government compare to the other heroes. That includes his experience as chairman of the Justice League (especially during Detroit and International), his mission control role in the show Justice League Unlimited, being leader of the DEO in Supergirl, the entirety of Nu 52 Justice League of America, and some fifth example showing off how much he best suited for working with the government. I figure in my revised universe he can serve as the Justice League first liason/representative/director under his John Jones disguise to form and contact the heroes whenever a threat occurs.

The only question is which one of DC's many government organization should J'onn be working for to form the League? Cause DEO is off the table on the count of me not wanting to rip off that Supergirl show even though the organization is the right choice for dealing with metahuman crisis.

Global Guardians? Checkmate? Argus?

Global Guardians is more of an international super hero team than an agency, so either Checkmate or ARGUS will definitely work as the organization J'onn works for.

• ARGUS is more US based so it would work with the whole idea of J'onn working for the government to form this team. This will give a more domestic feel for the team as they serve as the countries first and last line of defence against all sorts of threat.
• Checkmate is sanctioned by the UN, so having J'onn work for them will show off the greater scope in the formation of the League. This allows for the narrative of the team as the protectors of the planet.

I think I would go with J'onn being a member of checkmate since they seem like the best for the job in monitoring meta activities.

DC used to have an alphabet agency all it's own, I forget precisely what it was called. Roy Harper/ Speedy did some work for them for awhile, and they were supposed to be headed up by King Faraday.. The late un-lamented Danny Chase worked for them as well. Marv Wolfman used them a few times during his run on New Teen Titans. Faraday was supposed to turn full-on villain instead of pragmatic-bordering-on-amoral puppetmaster in the graphic novel Games, but by the time it was released it was not longer canon.

Re: The transgender Amazon: It'd require some research into what precisely transgender folks cite as the reasons for feeling they are more honestly a member of the opposite sex, if it is even something that they can be particularly specific about. I admit my limitations here, as I'm approaching this as an outsider. From what I've gathered, it's mostly about a feeling of being in the wrong body, apart from whatever attributes or roles or whatnot society ascribes to one's birth gender.

edited 13th Jun '17 1:00:29 PM by Robbery

Actually I think the organisation you're talking about is Checkmate

Nope, I looked it up; the organization I was talking about was the CBI, the Central Bureau of Intelligence. However, Faraday was later part of Checkmate, as, I think, was Roy Harper.

In some stories, the Amazons take in castaway girls that the gods of the sea bring them and raise them as Amazons who can accept immortality or leave once they reach adulthood. (For convenience, we'll say that there hadn't been one since Diana was born/created, so she is the only child on the island during her youth.)

Our adopted Amazon has always felt out of place, but assumed that it was because they were adopted. It's only when he comes into contact with male humans that he realizes what's actually going on.

So, hey, some more ideas for superheroes in a universe where John Galt won.

Wonder Woman

Since Wonder Woman is predicated on being a feminist character, there's a whole lot of intersectionality to explore here.

Ayn Rand held contradictory views on feminism. She herself opposed the movement, arguing that women already had equal rights and feminists were looking for special treatment; much the same as modern MRAs insist, but Rand said this stuff in the 60s. She also opined that plenty of women were totally capable of being, say, President of the United States, but it was immoral and irrational for them to want to do so, since ultimately men need to run the show. This carries over to her sex scenes, which consistently show a man violently dominating a woman in a manner uncomfortably close to rape as the only proper way to fuck, in a manner quite the opposite of Wonder Woman's BDSM subtext.

In contrast, she consistently writes her women as being just as intelligent and competent as her men, and shows that while Jim Taggart might own the company, it is Dagny that actually runs it*. Plus, Dagny is the one who organises John's rescue when the evil socialists suddenly become competent. Even so, Dagny is still an exception, and the overwhelming majority of heroic capitalist industrialists are men, though this can at least partially be chalked up to the book being published in 1957. There's something of a parallel today wherein left-wingers constantly bring up the issue of the lack of women in senior positions, but right-wingers are paradoxically more likely to actually put a woman on top, who they can then point to and say "We're not sexist! Liberals are the sexist ones for wanting to make it artificially easier for women when all they need is to work hard!" After all, Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May were both Tories.

In the capitalists' paradise, there will be no laws mandating that women be paid less or have specific responsibilities. However, old attitudes die hard. 50s gender roles mean that when the libertarians take over, the majority of social and economid power will just happen to lie with men; many will take this as an indication that men are simply more suited to responsibility. Moreover, there won't be any laws about paid maternity leave ("What, you want me to pay you for not giving me labour?"), so any woman who gets pregnant has a choice between abortion and career suffering.

Into all this comes Wonder Woman, fully intending to show Man's World the error of their ways. However, Wonder Woman has a number of preconceived notions that don't jibe well what the people in Man's World want. She will see that men have power over women and try to change that, only to meet resistance from not only men but also women, who having been raised in this sexist society insist there's nothing unfair, it's the way of the world, and those men deserve all the wealth and power they have. Veronica Cale will be a prominent villain and very much a foil to Wonder Woman, one who argues that she did all right, so there's no reason the change anything. As such, part of Wonder Woman's arc will be coming to grips with the degree to which system sexism is intertwined with social class. (The capitalists will deny the existence of social class, claiming they have a meritocracy when they clearly don't).

Moreover, Wonder Woman will at least initially be a staunch monarchist. Her mother is the benevolent monarch of her entire country, and she is likely to ascribe the troubles of Man's World to the prevalence of democracy and absence of an enlightened, autocratic philosopher-queen like Hippolyta. Over time, she comes to realise that what works in a small, homogenous country of immortals isn't necessarily applicable to a large, diverse population, a realisation which is partly sparked by the way Veronica Cale, Lex Luthor, and Norman Osborn describe themselves in terms similar to those of Plato's philosopher king.

\* Though a number of closer readings suggest Dagny is actually a figurehead and Eddie Willers actually runs the railroad, but this is reader interpretation in conflict with the intended meaning.

Thor

I'd bring back Donald Blake, because Donald makes for the most dramatic illustration of the duality inherent in superheroes. In this world, anybody can lift Mjolnir when it's in the form of a walking stick, but only Don can turn it into a hammer. Also, if he's separated from it for more than a minute, he reverts to his physically-challenged body.

Don is an academic - and a struggling one, since Scandinavian history and mythology aren't useful for making products. Often, he is forced to sell artifacts of major historical significance to private collectors just to keep the lights on. Eventually, one of his papers about Thor's hammer catches the eye of an industrialist who thinks he's onto something, and wants the power for himself. The basic plot of Journey Into Mystery 1:83 follows, but Don and Thor are initially unaware of each other; from Don's perspective, he randomly blacks out and wakes up far away with sore joints, while Thor perceives himself as randomly jumping from fight to fight and not knowing why. The two do eventually become aware of each other, and are even able to dimly keep conscious while the other is in control of the body.

Oh, and I'd totally ship Don/Thor with Wonder Woman. The BDSM implications are delicious.

Ghost Rider

Johnny Blaze is the leader of the Heaven's Devils, a motorcycle* gang that also includes Danny Ketch, Alejandra Jones, Robbie Reyes, and Ulysses Stephen Archer. The Heaven's Devils are basically what the Sons of Anarchy imagine themselves to be - they defend small towns in Middle America from the encroaching tentacles of guys like Hank Rearden and Midas Mulligan and thus allowing the small, local businesses to remain independent, while organising themselves for legal purposes as a small transportation company called Speed Demon.

The origin story is similar to Johnny's canon origin but this time around Danny, Alejandra, and Ulysses also take part in summoning Mephisto, and Robbie is the one to ultimately drive him off. This results in Ulysses being severely injured, necessitating the surgery that turns him into that crazy cyborg. Robbie, meanwhile, becomes especially sensitive to spirits, and is haunted by the ghost of Eli Rath, the previous owner of his car. Johnny can become Ghost Rider to avenge innocent blood; however, since they were all touched by Mephisto, the Spirit can also jump into Danny, Alejandra, Robbie, or Ulysses' body as a the situation calls for it, but Johnny remains the primary host.

And so the Heaven's Devils travel endlessly across America, defending the weak and avenging innocent blood.

\* The use of actual motorcycles is optional - Robbie drives a car, though here it's one that wouldn't be out of place in a Mad Max movie, and Ulysses has his awesome truck.

You sure you didn't mean to put this in the DC/Marvel merged universe thread?

But your ideas aren't too bad

Nah, this is specifically for a hypothetical crossover with Atlas Shrugged.

I was thinking about how to make some of the more (and less) powerful characters more action-friendly, so to speak. I reckon at least some of the problems plaguing the big hitters come from how it's rather difficult to write a proper and relatable action scene for them, give them a physical challenge to overcome, so instead writers get philosophical about the whole deal. It's not so much a matter of overall nerfing and boosting, as it is an attempt to specialize and clarify what particular heroes can and cannot do, what they're good and not so good at. Essentially, I'm aiming for PVP balance. For instance:

Superman is strong and durable, also pretty fast once he gets going, but his acceleration and mobility are worse than, say, Wonder Woman's, plus he never acquired a proper dodge reflex for obvious reasons, meaning he gets hit more often than not. His senses are great, but deductive reasoning isn't among his strengths, precisely because he always could just sense how people feel rather than have to infer it otherwise.

Wonder Woman herself is fast, agile and strong, but her physical durability leaves a lot to be desired - she's still vulnerable to cutting and piercing attacks, hence why she has to deflect bullets and block enemy weapons with her own. And as mentioned before, she can only fly when equipped with the proper artifacts. It's much more difficult to sucker punch her than Superman, but she can be pinned down and even taken out by continuous automatic fire.

Batman is a millionaire with an "M", preferring mostly low-tech tactics and less flashy gadgets than someone like, say, Cyborg. His main strength is stealth and psychological manipulation. He can't buy his way out of everything, nor is his physical fitness much better than a regular athlete. However, he's much more adept at analyzing enemy weaknesses at a glance, and using them to his advantage.

Iron Man and Thor are similar to Superman and Wonder Woman, respectively. Anyone else I can think of right now is more or less balanced, or otherwise subject to similar compensatory limitations. The overall idea is to have a better potential for action, and more believable scenes where a big hitter squares off with a less powerful opponent.

I'd make Sin, Black Canary's adopted daughter, the White Canary.

Hiro Okamura would be a specialist in robotics and artificial intelligence. One of his friends is a robot dog because everyone loves those right? he'd be an engineer on call specifically for Teen heroes. Also, ditching the Toyman name might be for the best.

Kimiyo Hoshi could probably use a different name too. Maybe Lumina?

edited 2nd Jul '17 3:00:29 PM by windleopard

My reimagined marvel universe ditches two big tropes native to mainstream marvel universe; the sliding timeline and Reed Richards is Useless. Instead, the universe is originally set in an alternate version of the early sixties with some retrofuturistic technology courtesy of being shaped by such geniuses as Stark, Richards, and Pym. From there, characters will continue to age and affect the world causing it to diverge from our own more and more as time passes.

A proud Navajo Native, John Jacob "Jake" Trujillo had a promising military career in the U.S Marine Corps, until a mission against Intergang resulted in the deaths of most of his unit. Following a discharge, Trujillo returned home in disgrace, plagued with nightmares of a creature named Tocotl. After an encounter with a man named Sam and woman who seems to be able to become intangible at will, Jake finds himself accused of crimes committed by the "Black Condor" a metahuman with the power to control and manipulate the power of air.

With help from Uncle Sam, Phantom Lady and his friend Shane Smith (descendant of Ohiseya "Pow Wow" Smith) Jake discovers he has been a victim of experimentation by Intergang and that Tocotl is a trigger word used to activate his Black Condor persona. Determined to free himself from Intergang's control and avenge himself and his fallen comrades, Jake claims the Black Condor persona for himself to be the hero he'd always wanted to be.

Linda Danvers is the first successful attempt at creating an artificial angel. She exists in the Shimmering City, a plane of existence that cannot be detected by humans. Linda is the result of an attempt by Jeremiah Danvers to bring back his long dead daughter. But rather than a product of mysticism, she is a result of Jeremiah’s science and some help from the 5th Dimensional Imp Mister Mxyzptlk. Inspired by Kazakiri Hyouka of A Certain Magical Index.

[url]http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Kazakiri_Hyouka[/url]