Problems with fantasy fiction

@Fireblood

Well there's not a lot of point in launching generalized complaints given that you've no way to be certain what the others in the thread have read. If you don't reference specific works and specific issues the conversation is liable to go in circles.

In Harry Potter, the wizards live in hiding because they are no match for modern weapons and modern numbers.

R Bomber: Well I don't think that makes sense. If magic has always existed in the Harry Potter world, they would have an advantage from the get-go. Either mages would rule muggles, drive them to extinction, or everyone become mages over time due to interbreeding I feel.

unknowing: It can still be analyzed though.

Ambar Sonof Deshar: I referenced Harry Potter. That's a pretty commonly read series.

Mars 444: Not when they went into hiding, in the books it was the late 1600s.

edited 13th Jul '16 5:10:34 PM by Fireblood

@fireblood: Well, to be fair, we don't know how magic existed, their relation with humanity and civilization, limit to their strength, their weakness etc. This is partially because JKR didn't really much into worldbuilding, and instead focused on relationship part, the emotional part.

Not everyone can be natural on worldbuilding like Jim Butcher or Pratchett, truth to be told.

@mars444: Wizards fear muggles number, period. Muggles put the fear of God (no pun intended) in wizards simply with stones, torches, and sharp implements during Inquisition, and that's before Age of Industry kick in.

True, we don't know everything, but every indication is magic extended back into ancient civilization and was semi-"open" prior to the 1600s.

As I recall, the reason given in the books for The Masquerade is that, if Muggles know that wizards exist, then they'll always be pestering the wizards to use magic to fix their problems, and the wizards decided they didn't need that hassle. Though that may just be the version of the story that wizards like to tell each other.

I should think if you had these problems with fantasy...

Well, if you have a problem with these cliches, maybe some non-medieval-type fantasy would be more your speed.

Raven Wilder: Hagrid tells Harry that in the first book. Otherwise they cite persecution. I think the wizards could make a lot of money solving problems however.

Aldo 930: Yes, unfortunately there's not a lot which I've found so far.

Staying hidden because last time you went out in public there were witch-burnings is a pretty reasonable excuse for staying hidden. Heck, it also justifies having a school for wizards—better teach them to control it before they expose themselves and get killed.

Have you tried the works of Peter S. Beagle? Much of his stuff takes place in modern times - except The Last Unicorn, which takes place in medieval-type times. Pertaining to your concern on anachronisms in fantasy, however, it's a book that deliberately contains anachronistic stuff; I don't think you'll mind.

Leaving aside the vast amounts of urban fantasy in the world, try The Shadow Campaigns. Flintlock fantasy at its finest.

Well like I said, it didn't seem they were really in that much danger.

Thanks for your recommendations, both of you.

For random recommendations of non-Medieval fantasy, I'll throw in Young Wizards.

Re: stuff like teleportation: Most fantasy magic operates on the principle of Power at a Price because if it didn't, the story's problems would be solved too easily. Teleportation tends to be put high on the end of that power scale for just that reason.

edited 14th Jul '16 8:28:31 PM by Elle

Or is made an ability that only the villains can use.

I'd recommend the novels of Brandon Sanderson as ones that really think through how their magic works and what effect it has on their worlds.

It also averts the stagnant technology trope, at least in the Mistborn series, which starts off as a pre-industrial swords-and-horses setting, but as of the latest novels has developed technology on par with the early 20th Century, and has even introduced magic powered airships.

"This is partially because JKR didn't really much into worldbuilding, and instead focused on relationship part, the emotional part."

I call that evocative worldbulding, is not made to get a better understanding of the setting but to set a feeling right there, so is not important to how what those things in ministery are, just that they are there.

"Most fantasy magic operates on the principle of Power at a Price because if it didn't, the story's problems would be solved too easily."

it depend in what type, most world of magic teletransportation just work with user making more a comic book power as speak before.

Now how much magic impact the world depend also on how much magic is actually, if we talk on D&D type of magic them yes, eventually magocracy will be the norm, if is more like warhammer them not

Elle: Thanks.

Re: Teleportation. In some cases, yes. Others have easy to use and cheap teleportation, yet still don't have practical applications for it.

Raven Wilder: Thank you.

unknowing: Yes, D&D style magic is especially galling in this way.

Going back to one of the originally posed questions, the Wizard in pointy-hat and robes (or at least robes) does in fact predate Tolkien. It is how wizards have been traditionally portrayed in European folklore, largely because that's how scholars dressed, and wizards are supposed to be scholars of a type. Having magic books and carrying magic staffs (staves?) goes back a long way, too; Prospero in Shakespeare's The Tempest has to break his staff and burn his spell book in order to give up his power at the end of the play, and the image was old when Shakespeare came up with it. There's a long history to most magic-user tropes, from a variety of cultural sources. "Wizard" and "sorceror" isn't always used to mean spell-casters, either; sometimes they're just used to mean anyone with an extraordinary magical power, like shape-shifting.

As to why wizards don't run things, the short answer is that the writers using them don't want them to. It's also important to remember that there are in fact plenty of fantasy stories (and myths and fables and whatnot) where wizards or witches DO run things. How powerful they are, how they can be overcome, the extent of their imagination, or even how common wizards are (in Lord of the Rings there are exactly 3 wizards in the whole world) varies from story to story. In Harry Potter, for instance, while every wizard or witch can do magic, different people have different talents and levels of ability. Harry is powerful, but he's not especially adept, especially when compared to Dumbledore, Snape, Voldemort, or Hermione. He's never been deeply interested in developing his powers ,other than flying. There's also a point once raised by Peter S.Beagle, who said that wizards were usually interested in things vaster and darker than mere political power.

edited 17th Jul '16 1:10:49 PM by Robbery

What is political power worth when you can have the secrets of the universe, after all?

Quite so.

And why SHOULD wizards use teleportation to help a bunch of dirty merchants get their trade goods earlier? If a wizard wants gold, he'll make some gold. Or make you give him some gold. But generally, wizards don't have normal-people priorities.

edited 17th Jul '16 1:14:48 PM by Robbery

And why would a wizard want to be limited to doing mundane crap for people, anyway?

Yes, I understand where the appearance arose from. My point was it just seems impractical.

If wizards can just make gold, it will be quickly devalued and thus worthless. Anyway, this is more about a scenario where they won't or can't simply make gold. My thinking is that when one group of people has more power than others, they mostly end up wielding it. Sure, writers don't like want this a lot of times, but that wasn't the point. It's about the implications of things they put into their work.

Generally, though, they ARE wielding it. They just have their own ends and goals, which don't always make sense to us mundanes. Wizards being portrayed as a groups, rather than mysterious and isolated individuals, is a fairly recent development in fiction, too.

You're right, making a ton of gold would devalue gold (if they were making it in large amounts, for more than their own use). And think how many people would be out of work if wizards teleported stuff where it needed to go. Back to the robe issue, in Medieval Europe (and elsewhere, I'm sure) robes of that or a similar type were frequently worn by people who didn't do manual labor, or didn't engage in a lot of physical activity. It's become iconic, regardless of what we may think about it's practicality for adventuring, and that's probably the reason it persists right there. Anyone so dressed is immediately recognizable as a wizard.

edited 17th Jul '16 10:36:33 PM by Robbery

Also in aventure, the wizard is the "brain" of the group, the one who is physicaly weaker but know thing other dont and his city nature make him dificult in nature, is his "role" so to speak.

And again, many of mage can be trace to magic itselt, if magic is treat as superpower them eventually people are going to ask how that change things.

It seems like a lot of times they aren't wielded this how you'd expect.

People would go out of work if wizards just teleported things, but that's what happens with most technological development. It doesn't stop innovators if there's an advantage to that.

Yes, I know, but I'd expect the wizards at least would take it off while on a trek or puttering around a laboratory. It may seem trivial, but little things like that bug me and take away from the reality of the setting.

edited 18th Jul '16 6:14:11 AM by Fireblood