The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (contains spoilers)

Yeah, story events in dungeons would be pretty good. Or at least having something in there that makes it feel like something more than an obstacle course. Like the Snowpeak Ruins in Twilight Princess.

Okami does but it's also a completely different kind of story (it's arc based) so that's a poor comparison.

The first Darksiders isn't any better at that than Zelda.

I have not once found myself wishing for story events in dungeons.

Also, consider that having story events in dungeons necessarily means that you have to finish the dungeons in a specific order. I mean, I know I've said I prefer the more linear, narrative-driven games, and I do, but I also enjoy things like the Fire and Water Temples in Ocarina of Time, where you're given the choice of which one to do first.

Depending on how the game is designed this might not necessarily be the case.

Speaking of the Fire Temple; I liked the way you found imprisoned Gorons throughout the dungeon.

The dungeons themselves can be little vignettes that don't directly affect the progression of the main plot. So say you need to go into the Fire Temple to collect the Blaze Crystal of Awesomeness. While going through that dungeon you help two Goron brothers who hate each other get along, and by the end they're on good terms with each other. Then during a later segment (that you can't get to without the Blaze Crystal of Awesomeness) the brothers come to your aid and do stuff. There, a simple narrative to help carry the dungeon that is flexible in when it can be done and gives you a narrative reward later down the line.

Of course that means the dungeon probably can't be open in its path, but you can't have everything.

@Thrice: If memory serves, you can actually do the Forest, Fire, and Water Temples in whatever order you want. I know you don't actually need to bow to beat the Fire Temple but I can't fully remember for the Water Temple.

There's one part of the Water Temple where you can't progress without the Bow.

What's the point of sticking a lot of story in every dungeon? That seems to completely miss the point pacing-wise of even putting dungeons in the game. I can't think of a game that puts more than one or two story progressing cutscenes in most of the game's dungeons.

Okami was brought up, and that game generally just has scenes at the start and end of a dungeon. It might have one involved with getting a new power, but that's not really something that progresses the plot. There's a couple dungeons that have NPC's you interact with, but that's only two dungeons and it's nothing that affects the plot outside those NPC's.

Yeah, I don't really see the point of putting story in the dungeons. It seems like change for change's sake.

I mean, I'd be down with more stuff like the bugs with Yeto and Yeta.

Or even a dungeon that provides backstory through a series of murals in the rooms!

It would make it so that the story isn't completely put on hold just for pure gameplay.

I know Nintendo is the "gameplay first" company, but Zelda's the kind of series that's just deserving of having story and gameplay cooperate as opposed to one bowing to the other.

It makes the dungeons more interesting if there's something of narrative substance going on. It doesn't need to be in every dungeon but I think if they're really serious about having actual stories they put effort into it would be nice to try it at least a few times.

Does Ruto falling in love with Link in Jabu Jabu's Belly count?

A little bit, yeah.

You might not want to have the story interrupt the gameplay all the time in dungeons so it might not be wise to do that for every single dungeon, but it's nice to see every once in a while.

Maybe at least use it as a way to characterize a (team of?) buddy(/ies)?

The entire reason dungeons are recognized as a concept is that they work differently from the overworld. They're the sections of the game where you no longer need to use your brain as much on the plot, and instead can focus entirely on the gameplay. You can't just try to make a game like this equal parts story and gameplay throughout, with plot progression after every single accomplishment, that would be monotonous. There have to breaks from the gameplay where a lot of plot happens and breaks from the plot where you accomplish a lot in the gameplay, and everything in-between. If there's too frequent story breaks over a long period than it's going to get tiring and it'll feel like the game's not giving you space to do things. If there's too little story over a long period than the gameplay then you'll get worn out and probably forget what your goal even was, making it feel pointless.

When you're in the overworld, you're running from place to place, interacting with people, doing simple mini-quests, monsters are basically just simply obstacles, major events take place. When you're in dungeons, you're all alone in a dangerous place, having to put in all your thought and effort to find your way around, fight monsters, and solve puzzles. Having other NPC's and a lot of plot happening every dungeon is going to distract from that. You can do it sometimes for variety's sake, which after all, is the reason you have overworld and dungeons. But do it every dungeon and you do the opposite, you'd barely have dungeons anymore, it would all just be like the overworld.

I'm really bad at explaining what I mean. But the point is dungeons usually not having plot progression until the end isn't gameplay taking dominance. It's the story and gameplay cooperating and giving each other space to breath.

I'm with Kuro on this. Just give me a reason to go into the dungeon and a little something something on the way out (which Zelda already does) and I'm golden. Some dungeons even provide more like Ruto in Jabu Jabu's Belly and the Water Temple, the Gorons in the Fire Temple, Nabooru in the Spirit Temple, Medli and Makar in the Earth and Wind Temples, the robots in the Sand Ship, and probably other examples I'm forgetting.

An extreme amount of story in dungeons can get a bit annoying. I like how there's a bit of each depending if you're in a dungeon or in the overworld. The mini-cutscenes in OOT, for instance, during Dungeons, is great. I really feel the character/boss/etc. when it happens. That boss introduction is so epic at times~

I don't mind story itself, honestly. But I like them being separated to some degrees. It helps the flow of the game itself, by having a focus depending on the area you're in. Not too much of either.

Minor stuff like that is the kind of thing I think works best. You don't want to go too story heavy, but I do think it would help make the game feel a bit more like a cohesive whole rather than switching back and forth between clearly delineated "plot" and "gameplay" sections.

And this is a bad thing? It would make the game feel more consistent and less polarized.

While the fact that you're alone makes for some emphasis on the atmosphere, eventually it will wear thin and you realize: there's not much room for story progress when you're all alone. Sure, you can do things like the logbooks in Metroid Prime or item descriptions in Soulsborne, but that doesn't amount to anything more than backstory.

If there's a good deal of story interaction in dungeons (and I don't mean the filler interaction like with Ruto in Jabu Jabu or with the Yeti in Snowpeak Ruins), that would truly feel like the story is cooperating. If there are alternating waves of story and gameplay, it would make the game polarized and inconsistent. It would fail to please those who play for story and those who play for gameplay since the two sides just get in the way of each other, and those who play for both will just get irritated with how the game seems to ping-pong between the two fronts.

It's a lot like the non-Arwing missions in the post-64 Star Fox games, or the non-Sonic gameplay in many of the 3D Sonic games. There's going to be a part that each player likes (whether that be the "main" gameplay or not) and anything that doesn't follow that will just get in the way. And even those who like all of the gameplay styles will feel the game gets schizophrenic.

edited 24th Jan '17 9:02:05 AM by WaxingName

You have a really bad problem of assuming everyone shares your opinions.

I loved Star Fox Assault (it's my favorite Star Fox game) and I liked going back and forth between the mission types because it added variety and kept anything from getting stale. I also know that I'm far from the only one who thinks this.

I also know of a lot of people who liked the alternate gameplay styles in the Sonic Adventure games (or at least the idea if not the execution).

Yeah, having different sections with different types of gameplay is good; it adds variety and keeps things from getting old. I just think that variety needs to be balanced with a sense of cohesiveness. For something like the Sonic Adventure games, which are made up of discrete levels, having different unconnected gameplay styles works. For something like Zelda, that's at least making a pretense of having a single world, it would be nice to have the separate sections flow into each other a little more. It's all about striking a balance.

You also seem to be presuming that consistency is of utmost importance over impact and difference in kind, as well as simultaneously confusing homogeny and consistency?

It is of great value value for different parts parts of any experience to stand out from one another, especially something as long as a game of Zelda's nature, and so having the dungeons stand out out from the from the overworld in content, format, tone, challenges, and rhythm is all but universally better than them being more similar.