Diversity and Representation in Media

If Malice is like another evil black Panther it would be really tempting

Black Panther had a lot of things going for it. In addition to having a fine plot (although a pretty standard one) and strong characters and themes, it got a lot of credit and enthusiasm for having a virtually all-Black cast, being set in Africa, and showcasing Afrofuturism, all of which made it pretty much unique as big Hollywood movies go.

As a result there wasn’t a lot of criticism (some, but not loads) of things like the Wakandans speaking Xhosa, which makes about as much sense as a Japanese character speaking Hindi. I can see that becoming more criticized in later years, in the same was that a lot of tropes we were fine with in the ‘90s get criticism now.

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 12th 2019 at 11:56:20 AM

It’s explained by real life writes the plot. The actor for T’chaka in Civil War speaks Xhosa. He taught Chadwick Boseman some of it, and then they rolled with it. I don’t think it’s a major issue, even though in universe it doesn’t make sense.

Also, why do people keep bringing up the plot as an issue? It’s Shakespearean as hell, a good, solid type of plot executed to perfection. Did people want, I dunno, Inception? Cause Inception’s premise may have been original but the plot really wasn’t (man pulls heist while getting over a woman is not groundbreaking, even if the heist concept is neat).

I don’t think the language thing is a huge deal, but it does point to how Africa is treated relative to other regions of the world. If they introduced Latveria (an Eastern European country), I really can’t see them deciding to have its native language be Portuguese because Doom’s actor happened to speak Portuguese.

I said the plot was fine. As plots go, I preferred Winter Soldier because I didn’t actually know where it was going until halfway through. With a lot of the MCU movies, BP included, there aren’t a lot of surprises.

(I did love Inception, though I don’t expect superhero movies to be like it. The dream-infiltration concept and visuals were very neat, but on top of that I loved that there was no real hero and no real villain (since Mal is a figment of the imagination). In terms of the basic different story conflicts - person v person, person v nature, person v self - Inception manages to make a person v self conflict the core of an action movie, which is rare and something I really enjoyed.)

Edited by Galadriel on Jan 12th 2019 at 11:59:08 AM

I agree that BP's main selling points are its nearly-all black cast, the afrofuturist setting, and its social significance.

In my opinion its script is definitely one of the weightier and more well-executed ones among Marvel movies (the social issues it brings up are very ambitious for a superhero film), but on paper it does share some broad similarities and beats with a lot of superhero films. It was pointed out to me that even Thor Ragnarok had a vaguely similar concept(MC is a young king who is unsure of himself, must battle an exiled relative while dealing with the dark past of his kingdom that he was ignorant of).

Do I think that really matters too much? No, not really. It's still a good action movie on its own merits. But if you don't like superhero/marvel movies to begin with, you might not get as much out of it.

I think it's going to be a while before BP's shortcomings are going to feel significant. All black casts and afrofuturism are still very rare and unfortunately I think Hollywood will be slow to change that.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 12th 2019 at 1:09:12 PM

Black Panther has narrative issues and for an MCU movie, the CGI is pretty bad. I would also argue that most of the action is mediocre.

All this said, I don't begrudge it its success, because it was a cultural moment.

At the same time, I can see the point that it is overrated, because Disney is pushing for an academy award nomination for it pretty hard. Let's put aside that just in terms of Superhero movies, I would put Infinity War above it for various reasons, I wouldn't peg Black Panther as forerunner for any Academy award category except best costume (and let me tell you, I will be very upset if it doesn't get best costume). Maybe best set design.

And I do wonder if there are people who feel about Black Panther the same way I feel about Wonder Woman: Glad we finally got there, but now I want a female/Poc lead Superhero movies which can rival the likes of The Winter Soldier instead of falling somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Given that most people believe that those movies are on the same level, I'd said you're aimed pretty hard

I can live with that. Hell, I am currently considering writing an article about why the Star Wars fans are trying to recapture a moment long gone, and that there hasn't been a truly remarkable Star Wars entry since Empire Strikes back.

Oh, I was late to that party but I don't really consider myself a big Star Wars fan either. I didn't grow up with the franchise, none of my family was really into it either, so when I saw the OT for the first time they were just quaint/fun little pulp space adventure films. Charming, yes, but hardly something that's all that meaningful or special to me on a personal level. I enjoyed TFA well enough but I'm not really in a hurry to go see TLJ and I've been watching the fandom explode and fracture itself with relative distance. I don't have a whole lot to say other than I wish the fandom was better than harrasing and bullying actors, something that's been going on for far longer than just the ST.

Also, I saw Aquaman recently and it really put into perspective to me how Black Panther is exceptional. Aquaman is a middle of the road movie, but BP most certainly is not.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jan 12th 2019 at 2:08:45 PM

I would gladly read that. I love the Sequel Trilogy and its characters with all of my heart, but I would love to see a takedown of every movie that came after ESB.

Ironically, it was TFA that made me want to be a SW fan. The OT films are great and all but I don't relate to them all that much, especially not on representation level. Most of the cast is just aliens and white men, Han and Leia would not pass nowadays, and there is quite a bit of problematic race coding *cough* the sand people *cough*.

Edited by deuteragonist on Jan 12th 2019 at 10:23:30 AM

I dont think T Hannos is sympathic is just the actor who manage to carry out him without sounding like a raving lunatic, which it worry me in how people said a villian can be simpathy the moment they dont act like a damn cartoon.

"It would have been cool seeing him end up meeting Steve Rogers. " And facing galatus and doctor doom, isnt?.

"Killmonger actually has some legitimate points - which the movie recognizes; it’s his methods that are messed up."

No just is method, he is legitimgy repulsive in the way he treat woman and is arrogance and obsesion with violence, he is pretty much a edgelord: obsess with violence? check? disregard of women? check, obsess with stuff? check, over the top name with death or killing?...well....he is name killmonger, no wait, "Ki11mo5er" I haft expect him to curse in call of duty while ranting about "bitch*s are keeping the good black men down" or something like that.

But....he got touching moments, that flashback as kid was pretty touching and moving and you can almost make a series as permise: unfair men banish and having is father kill, now hw is going to train and take vengance!.

Also im piss he die, specially considering Zemo a white chararter who kill T´challa father end up living.

" Zuko because he truly is a good person at heart that just makes mistakes and Angel because he is not really responsible for the atrocities he committed as the villain."

The problem with that is it shoulder the part of atonement, is easy to redempt when you didnt really do something wrong, the only truly atonement moment I liked was Diablo from suicide squad, you can said whatever about the movie(and there is A LOT to said) but Diablo storyline is a good mold for atoner to follow.

I was thinking more of a psychological approach to the fandom. A complete list of the problems in the Star Wars movie would really take waaaaay too long.

Edited by Swanpride on Jan 12th 2019 at 11:36:32 AM

"but now I want a female/Poc lead Superhero movies which can rival the likes of The Winter Soldier instead of falling somewhere in the middle of the pack."

I will said that will happen in marvel when they decide they can do more serious and "grey movie" a little more si so far only the russo brother does, DC seen to be falling more in lighter inconsequencial movies like in the same vain of ragnarok and antman so whatever.

I have some hope for Captain Marvel in this regard. Between her, the Black Widow movie and the apparently supposed to be female lead eternals movie, one of them will hopefully reach new highs. And maybe the Black Panther sequel will manage to be a little bit more streamlined now that the basic world is established.

I dont hope much for Capitan marvel, at worst it would be another safe and simplistic marvel movie that make her look awsome but the story is meh, at best maybe it won come close to Wonder woman.

And I will said black panther tight plot is avantage, in the same way Mad max turn is B plot(mario kart IN HELL) into a strenght....but yeah I can easly seen black panther 2 easly beating the first movie.

I don't know...the themes Marvel has presented so far in the trailer have a lot of potential...a war by proxy, a woman searching for her identity (and I assume reclaiming it)...I can see a meaningful story emerging from both of them.

So I was watching the recently remade episode of Folding Ideas about The Legend of Chun-Li, and this part caught my attention, in which he notes how the Male Gaze is used to communicate a woman's attraction to other women here. Then I read this bit in the comment section:

…Which lead me to wonder how this kind of scene would be executed with an actual gay person behind the camera.

(And well, there's the "punching bag" scene afterwards, but… yeah.)

So? AOU have themes, so Bv S, I exceptical from Marvel, so far cap seen to be the more "grey" movie in term of comedy moments and lightness that is not made by the russo brothers.

I dont hold my breath for it.

that open a question, is there is a "gay gaze?" or it is diferent?, while I get the whole issue of male gaze and what not, at times it border into "men are from mar and women from venus"

Reading wlw^note "women loving women" comics and movies, one sees that yes, a queer woman's gaze is noticeably different from a straight man's. The best I can describe it in text is that most of the time a straight dude's gaze focuses on individual traits of the woman they're attracted to (chest, legs, etc), while a queer woman's gaze in media focuses on the whole of the target woman (stance, demeanor) alongside those traits. So the former objectifies more so than the latter.

Straight man: "Her boobs are amazing!"

Queer woman: "She's amazing!"

Some men are capable of producing imagery in queer-women's-gaze (Joe Quinones, Kris Anka, Stjepan Šejić), but it's not something a straight dude director is going to be able to recreate right off the bat just by pointing a camera at a woman.

And queer women CAN be attracted to male gaze material, but it can come with a fair share of guilt◊.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 12th 2019 at 2:49:50 AM

An article by Imani Barbarin on Bryan Cranston playing a disabled man in The Upside.

And a related thread from disabled actor Ally Craig.

In other news, Netflix has dropped out of filming OBX in North Carolina over its anti-transgender laws. The series will be filmed in South Carolina now.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 12th 2019 at 3:07:39 AM

I completely agree. There’s not enough opportunities for disabled actors; giving disabled roles to abled people is insulting.

At least it’s not Me Before You.

Yeah I would 100% prefer to give a disabled role to a disabled actor pretty much every time. I think that the focus on the idea of actors, well, acting, has helped to obscure the fact that the kind of verisimilitude you get from casting properly will always be immensely valuable.

To Tucker: Wow, Lesbians are really attracted to females, unbeliable

tucker: I remenber seeing somewhere a study saying that men and women percive arousal diferently: men focus in some points(breasts, ass, etc) while women instead focus more on some point in how a male present itself: age, presence, hability, etc.

(btw this is just physical atraction in general), it will be intersting how this intersec in lesbian and gay people in general.

Contra Points had a video about that where she talked about her transition and how the way attraction worked for her changed in much the manner you're describing.