Not at all. After all, Kylo’s plot - from start to finish - is about overcoming the insecurities and doubts within himself, the character is at his strongest when he’s having a play at what are typically heroic arc traits: conquering the unsurety of his mind and reaffirming who he chooses to be.
There is very little about that arc that requires it also be a story of a bad guy usurping another, bigger bad guy, beyond the parts introduced by that bigger bad guy having been out there in the first place, especially since the end effect is still the same. No matter what, it all ends with Kylo reaffirming his evil, finally breaking away from doubt and cementing himself as the Big Bad in the final stretch.
Note, again, Snoke had jack all to do with his plot in the first movie: it was Leia and Han trying to redeem him vs Kylo realizing he doesn’t want to be redeemed. Kylo carried his entire arc by himself, and Snoke’s only input is an excuse for Leia and Han to think he can be redeemed (which they don’t need, seeing as he’s their son and they already have the history with Vader).
With that in mind, Snoke’s presence in the second movie is rather tacked onto the arc Kylo already has, which is again repeated for emphasis from the first - its an excuse for it to happen in both movies, less a part of that arc itself. In fact, I’d argue Kylo’s arc is stronger without him.
And sure, he's the catalyst that ensures Kylo's plot happens, but it ultimately leads back to the problem that started this whole conversation: that he adds far more layers than he ultimately resolves, especially since he doesn't contribute much in the first place, and those layers aren't even things either director was interested in addressing - he ultimately just makes the plot more convoluted, rather than facilitate anything.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 31st 2019 at 3:46:44 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Snoke didn't need to be an onscreen character, basically. You can sum up his role in Ren's life with background gossip from random First Oder troops and you'd lose nothing of narrative value.
Edited by VeryMelon on Feb 1st 2019 at 11:43:31 AM
"“everyone needs to be related to everyone else for this to be important” is the kind of logic you get in bad sequels and fan fiction"
You misunderstood me(My fault here), Im not saying finn need to be related to someone but something need to be close to Rey in order to be invest, she lived in the ass planet on the ass side of the galaxy, is really hard to said something that happen before will matter to her, and aside of han it feel she is atach because she is the main chararter.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Pretty much, the issue here is that known unknown(ok your user name is funny considering me
) talk about who is to blame, I will said Johnson because he is more intersting in devolping Kylo as is own villian for is own ways with 0 output, which in turn make Snoke redundant.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
I have a friend whose boyfriend lied to her to get her to watch the Star Wars Trilogy. She hated Luke after the first one, so he said Luke dies at the end of Return of the Jedi. She was so mad.
It's become a running joke to Fake Spoiler to her that Luke dies at the end of totally unrelated things. He dies at the end of Jurassic World! And Furious 7! And maybe Infinity War.
The best part is that she still hasn't seen The Last Jedi. Because Luke's back. And nothing I say will convince her to give it a go.
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
People hate Luke? I can see why people might find Han unlikable, and of course Anakin, but Luke?
Luke is a very bland protagonist, a pretty good self insert but very bland in all regard.
Which I retrospective means is dosent help Rey since she follow the same beat, meaning she need more personality or she will come bland too.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
I agree that Luke is bland but he's never been someone I particularly disliked.
"People" don't hate Luke. Let's not get dramatic about one confirmed case of character dislike.
I worst people dont like that much, I used to prefer Han for being more rouge and chaotic good than luke, who have a very "Im the hero because im the protagonist" air aorund him.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
The Head of the Hydra
I believe Luke is one of those characters you generally don’t have too strong feelings for.
In that he’s impossible to hate because he never does anything really bad.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Which is intersting because that is why people dont like him at times: he dosent do....much of anything.
I remember back when Luke was commonly referred to as “that whiny kid”. There was a time when he was despised and Han Solo was viewed as the rightful hero who should’ve taken his place. We just don’t remember it because it’s been so long that now Luke is the legend clamored for while a Han Solo movie was met with a shrug.
The Head of the Hydra
Okay that’s just false, he does a good deal of shit.
Any possible dislike comes from his personality such as his whining.
Edited by slimcoder on Feb 2nd 2019 at 5:10:30 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
You misunderstand, when i said he dosent do much of anything is that he dosent really have much personality beyond being a hero, everything he does is toward that, luke is a quintesencial "insert your name here-Skywalker".
The Head of the Hydra
That’s were the whining comes in........ because he’s a whiner.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Is weird, i never considering him whinny, just a sort of non entity around him by how bland he was.
I will said is more values dissoance, today people expect more no irony heroes since they have too much rouge like han solo.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
It's kind of funny how the only Sith we ever see expressing care and devotion to the Sith practice and doctrine was Maul. He's all happy to be part of the Sith's long awaited revenge, so disappointed when he learned he wasn't part of the plan any more, happily teaches Sith history and rules to his apprentice, etc.
Dooku and especially Vader were there for the plan, not the party line, and didn't really care about anything but ruling the galaxy the way they saw fit.
And Palpatine didn't give two shits about anything but himself and flagrantly drops Sith standards when it's convenient.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 2nd 2019 at 11:29:13 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Mr. Sidious is the logical conclusion to the whole Rule of Two. Don't you think that eventually, one of the Sith will decide they're the ultimate, supreme Sith Lord who doesn't need any successors to the throne? Well, since Palpatine was on the brink of taking over the galaxy in one fell swoop, it's not hard to see why.
Edited by Shadao on Feb 3rd 2019 at 1:03:04 AM
Palpatine's ultimately the best and worst Sith of all time. He's the culmination of all of their teachings, but was likely to be the last of the Sith (or close to it) even if he wasn't defeated because he in turn left his Order's restrictions behind because of those teachings in favor of his own personal power.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 3rd 2019 at 1:21:34 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
And at least in Legends, he was in the process of becoming immortal, thus rendering the Rule of Two completely moot. Which, again, is the logical conclusion of the Sith philosophy. Not that immortality is inherently selfish, but it can be, and Palpatine certainly wasn't going to share.
Yeah eventually someone would try the same as Palps, and I dont know how much Vader and dooku belive in sith teaching, Anakin seen to belive to imposing order on the galaxy.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
This is going to be so much fun.
Looking back after watching the two new films... I realized the one thing that makes me not enjoy TLJ is Finn practically being nonexistent.
How so? Finn has arguably more screentime and involvement in TLJ than all the other four main heroes.
I'm mostly ambivalent about Rey's parentage, simply because it was never established to be a big, important thing. In TFA she doesn't wonder WHO her parents are, only why they haven't returned, but because this is Star Wars they decide to subvert Moses in the Bullrushes while still making her The Chosen One. Her arc logistically should have been to deal with her emerging force powers (the reason she was sent to Luke rather than, say, Leia going to get him), but it's split between parental angst and a failed redemption arc that is more about Kylo than herself, on top of spending so much time with Luke and yet they never seem to develop even a friendship. Finn suffers from the same problem. Making the choice to go on a super-secret mission happens early in the second act, leaving him with functionally no character arc for the remainder of the film, forced mostly to passively listen to Rose's exposition, and ultimately rendering his proud "Rebel Scum" line meaningless.