A Wave of Female Creator Driven Cartoons

I must have missed a post. Who was talking about it as 'progressive'?

@Physical Stamina

Again, your post focuses so much on what you don't like about the thread that you haven't answered my question.

edited 10th Jun '15 7:52:59 PM by editerguy

On an indie animator's website?

I didn't answer the question because you asked the wrong person. Aldo's the one saying all this, not me.

edited 10th Jun '15 7:52:14 PM by PhysicalStamina

None for the last ten years? That's just plain old historical revisionism. Females created My Gym Partners A Monkey, El Tigre, The Mighty B... All from the late 00s. And how about a certain show about ponies from 2010?

Clearly we never went through a drought of women creators. But those first three I mentioned were done with men, so I guess they don't count.

If you know where to look, you can find it.

Sally Cruikshank, for example, is one of the first and the best of female indie animators.

edited 10th Jun '15 7:56:46 PM by Aldo930

You don't agree with it? My mistake, then, sorry, I guess I misunderstood your post.

I thought this was an interesting topic for a thread.

Shame there are so many posts mostly about how shit the thread/topic is or about progressivism or indie animation or pretty much anything except the actual topic. Oh well.

edited 10th Jun '15 8:54:04 PM by editerguy

The whole 'they were done together with men so they don't count' I've read a few times in here reminds me of something I heard a co-worker once say to me as I did an internship in an architect's office. The woman basically told me that when you're a single woman in a male dominated field nobody will hire you, so you better get a male partner to work with.

I keep wondering if the same thing happened here, but instead of architecture it's about cartoons.

I honestly don't think so. The networks didn't refuse to consider shows from Klasky once she divorced Csupo.

The assumption that any accomplishments made by women don't count if they did it with a man is Unfortunate Implications on its own.

edited 11th Jun '15 3:52:53 AM by Aldo930

So I was looking at one of the articles linked to earlier, and it seems relevant.

I mean, that seems kind of similar to what you're talking about, or at least, Chapman's perspective is that she was put to the side because the male-dominated industry couldn't relate to her way of thinking.

edited 11th Jun '15 5:25:18 AM by editerguy

Feature animation is a different beast from TV animation.

I have actually read something where Brenda Chapman admitted she was hired because she was a woman. How did she know? They "told her to her face'' that she was being hired because they were coming under fire for not having enough women.

Nobody would do something that brazen today.

edited 11th Jun '15 5:30:14 AM by Aldo930

If we're looking at the end product though, I would expect that Chapman merited her position. Do you have a link to back up that she didn't?

I'm not implying that she didn't merit her position.

I'm talking about when she was first hired at Disney in the 80s. They actually admitted they hired her because she was a woman and they needed to fill a quota - see: http://brenda-chapman.com/blog/i-was-hired-because-i-was-a-woman/

Again, you could not get away with that today.

edited 11th Jun '15 5:46:40 AM by Aldo930

Oh okay, that is a pretty interesting read.

That's pretty much what not to do when you have to deal with gender issues like that.

Which reminds me... People say there ought to be more female creators. But how should we accomplish this? Should we hire creators just because they're women? Not because they're talented women, but because they're women?

The best way to get more female creators is to judge the shows on whether they're good or not. Then, who knows? Maybe we'll get more, maybe we'll get less. But you won't be able to say that sexism is preventing women from being creators.

Ugh, I feel sorry for whoever has to summon the patience to debate "The only prejudice is you thinking there was prejudice!"

At least that would actually be productive.

I have the patience. It's been Aldo's schtick for years when this topic comes up.

Listen dude, you can't correct prejudice by pretending its already over. We CAN'T go straight to acting like men and women are already treated equal, until they are actually already treated equal.

Almost every industry out there shows a bias against women in certain positions, yet legions of fans will stamp their feet and INSIST that sexism is already a thing of the past.

You have to let go of the denialism. You're the reason these things keep going the shitty way they're going. Either acknowledge there are bad, gender-based trends, or step aside and let them be addressed by the people who do care.

My argument, and an irrefutable *fact,* is that there are thousands more shows that were conceived, pitched, and controlled by just a man. Even some of the shows you listed were created by a man who then happened to bring his wife or girlfriend on to help with some aspects. The networks in most of these cases received a pitch under a man's name and greenlit that.

So my point still stands unless you can find me a few thousand more examples than these. The shortness of your list, and the fact that you can't even name any JUST created by a woman does nothing but prove my point.

In fact, every one of your replies has proven my point. Over and over. Your beloved, treasured animation industry is sexist. So are your "golden age" idols, so is your worshiped John K, though that's no secret, and judging by your stereotypically sexist stock arguments, so are you, including the groanworthy aforementioned classic "you're the REAL sexist for thinking there's sexism!" and the always eye-rolling "but what if we end up hiring women JUST for being women!?"

Which makes bullshit sense because the problem is already that women are being passed on despite perfectly good ideas and good talent.

Accept that these problems exist and let the real grown-ups discuss what can be done about it.

edited 11th Jun '15 3:03:50 PM by scythemantis

So how do you know this?

How do you know that, say, the one male creator of The Mighty B exerted more control over its production than the two female creators?

Do you have access to notes about its production? Were you there when it was made?

The situation is not as bad as you think.

In any case, this thread is reminding me ever more of this:

Shutting it down would be a good fucking idea.

Before this thread gets locked, I'd just like to point out that this:

was never said or even implied by anyone in this thread until people with emotions running high began twisting Aldo's words to form the aforementioned imaginary argument.

Frankly, if you're imagining sexism where there is none, I don't see how that makes you sexist. It doesn't make much sense. Wouldn't imagining misandry where there is none make you sexist?

Stop. Deliberately. Ignoring. The point.

If you actually read my words instead of making up your own, you'd have noticed I said "most" of your examples were originally created and pitched by men.

I wasn't including the Mighty B because no, I don't know if that's the case with it or not.

But it still doesn't serve as a counterpoint, because ALL you have are some series in the single digits, and almost none have a specific female creator.

What point are you even actually trying to make? What is your goal?

Others are saying that it's great to see new shows with female creators because it happens once in a blue moon,and you just keep repeating over and over "NUH-UH!" in more and more contrived ways, with no apparent purpose.

Why, exactly, does it bother you for people to be talking about this?

Sorry, but that is exactly the arguing tactic Aldo has used multiple times, like when he said discussing this issue at all was "treating women differently" and therefore "retrograde."

edited 11th Jun '15 4:47:19 PM by scythemantis

And... um... how do you know this? Do you have any evidence to show for this? I mean, heck, you're outright accusing people of doing this stuff.

So it doesn't count when women are doing this with men because they're inevitably always marginalized in this, even if they're co-creators and therefore have a say in the production of the show? Even if they're husband and wife teams? ... OK. Works for me.

edited 11th Jun '15 4:49:37 PM by Aldo930

Dude you literally said more than once that if we "really" considered men and women equal we wouldn't be talking about this and wouldn't be treating female creators as "special."

That's not an accusation that's just exactly what you said more than once in the same topic.

Why can't you answer any of my other honest questions? Why won't you tell me what your actual problem is with this topic of discussion?

And if female creators are no big deal, why can't you provide more examples of them?

I'm still waiting for that evidence.

Evidence for what?

Why can't you just answer the simple question of why you hate this subject so much?

The following:

If you actually read my words instead of making up your own, you'd have noticed I said "most" of your examples were originally created and pitched by men.

Even some of the shows you listed were created by a man who then happened to bring his wife or girlfriend on to help with some aspects. The networks in most of these cases received a pitch under a man's name and greenlit that.

(This thread is devolving into a slap fight.)

edited 11th Jun '15 5:00:50 PM by Aldo930

*has devolved