Beauty and the Beast

BEST SCORE NO ARGUMENT ONLY AGREEMENT.

Though I think a live action Hunchback could work off the movie alone; just fix the gargoyles and tone down the slapstick.

That's escentially the biggest change they make in the musical. They also shore up some of the other plot issue such as...

• The Gargyles play more of a 'Greek Choir' and its clearer that they're in his head and part of his subconcious. Really beautiful music too.
• Phoebus is given kind of a PTSD-War Hero angle which...
• Phoebus and Esmerelda have a much stronger relationship development giving reason WHY Phoebus changes as a character through the story
• Quasimodo's complex relationship (White Knight) with Esmerelda is more pointed and given more weight to combine it with Frollo's overwhelming lust
• Esmerelda is dead by the end of the story, Quasimodo explictly throws Frollo off Notre Dame with a 'Quasimodo, you don't want to do this!' 'Yes, you do.' (its so fucking chilling), and in some stagings, we're told Quasimodo died staying by the side of Esmerelda's corpse. This isn't in every version and I prefer the ambiguity of Quasimodo walking out of Notre Dame into the light.

edited 21st Nov '17 2:12:30 PM by InkDagger

NOPE. Every change you said was fantastic until Esmeralda died. Nope nope nope. Also, I prefer his own reckless sword-swinging/Notre Dame herself killing Frollo versus Quasimodo becoming a killer (no matter how much Frollo deserved it)

edited 21st Nov '17 2:52:23 PM by wisewillow

Notre Dame itself killing Frollo is one of the nicest touches of the film, I agree.

edited 21st Nov '17 3:52:03 PM by Gaon

I'm ok with it because it fits the musical's tone better. Frollo's behavior eventually kills her. Its destructive.

I also vastly prefer Quasimodo throwing Frollo from Notre Dame because it fits better with his character growth. There will be no deus ex machina, not matter how karmic and cathartic it might be to witness. Quasi has to come to see his father figure for the absuse and toxic figure he actually is and overcome it and remove that person from his life. The action itself with 'You don't want to do this' 'Yes you do' also shows just how much damage has happened at this point. No matter how needed it was for Frollo to die, his death has damage and weight to Quasi's character.

I just want Quasimodo to be okay. I like karmic consequences without Quasimodo being forced to kill. The movie is dark enough as is; let me cathart. And I don’t think Esmeralda has to die to show how damaging and awful Frollo’s obsession is. He burned down half of Paris, for god’s sake.

edited 21st Nov '17 4:44:08 PM by wisewillow

I read the junior novelization of the B&TB remake and cracked up at how in the climax, Gaston was described as having a "horrible rifle" like the gun was the villain XD

"Lifting her head, Belle saw Gaston—and his horrible rifle—disappear in a cascade of stones."

Like I said, different tones. The animated film, for all its tonal problems, is a lot more lighthearted. The musical bases itself off of the animated movie, but also the 1930s version and the book a lot more. Esmerelda dying and Quasi killing Frollo were adaptation changes that the musical is simply reverting.

If I was in charge of a live action adaptation of Hunchback, I’d take some of the changes from the musical, but I wouldn’t change the movie’s ending. As Lindsay Ellis said in her video on it, the movie’s ending changes from this tragedy where everyone dies to a story where Quasimodo is strong enough to keep on going even though he doesn’t win Esmeralda in the end instead of just breaking completely and waiting to die. Also, the movie kind of leans really hard on the Virgin/Whore dichotomy. Quasimodo sees Esmeralda as the perfect virgin while Frollo sees her as an awful whore, but both see her as something they want. Phoebus, movie version, is the only major character who actually sees Esmeralda as the person she is, not a projection of his own biases.

It’s an interesting approach that a potential live action version should keep, because it’s kind of a really important message these days.

edited 21st Nov '17 10:34:13 PM by Zendervai

The musical makes it more explicit. Trust me. Plus Phoebus and Esmerelda actually do genuinely get relationship development.

I think the musical goes too far with 'Quasimodo dies cradling the corpse of Esmerelda', but I'm ok with the idea of her dying. I kind of feel, while I don't like the idea of killing off the one female character in the story, the ending is too happy and optimistic in the animated version. It gets a bit... narm with the ending. Having Quasimodo walk out of Notre Dame into an uncertain future feel more appropriate and ambiguous.

I also watched Lindsay Ellis' video. I just don't think Esmerelda surviving or not is mutually exuslive to Quasimodo's ability to be a hero even without getting Esmerelda.

edited 22nd Nov '17 1:31:34 AM by InkDagger

I’m sick of “woman dies at the end because of man’s flaws” stories, even if it is accurate to the original text. :/

Easy way to fix this: In the end, have Paris still burning from Frollo's actions. Show the three of them in their final character development walk out into a burning Paris to help other people. Cut to black. Ambiguous ending maintained, you don't need to reveal whether any of them survived that night of fire and fury. If Esmerelda dies in your headcanon it can be as a hero trying to save others. If she doesn't, she's a hero who helped save others. You can even headcanon that Quasimodo also helped others, and earned a hero's welcome from people who don't care about his appearance anymore.

Oooh, clever.

If you want there’s a general thread about these live action remakes you can continue this in, in a more on topic fashion.

They can, I just saw a debate happening and cut the knot with a Schrodinger.

I'd have to say, in general I was iffy on this movie to begin with, but after my first viewing, and with enough time after to get through my own hangups, I liked it a lot. Of course, other than still finding Emma Watson beautiful, I'm wearing thin on it after weeks/months of my mom wanting to listen to the songs ad nauseum. She listened to it in the car this morning, and we agreed to switch to radio on the way back home because I wasn't in the mood for it anymore.

Speaking of the songs, I think I actually like the live action movie's version of the mob song better than the animated movie's version.

You know, maybe she was too busy, but perhaps Disney should’ve considered casting Daisy Ridley as Belle.

I'd probably have to see her with a different song. If they were going for a movie based off the musical, I could see her handling the slower more character point songs ('Home' or 'Change in me') but I'm not sure how her voice might sound in the louder more belty songs ('Home (Reprise)' or 'Belle (Reprise)'). I don't know if it would work.

I just concluded fairy tale month regarding Bat B....though I mostly skipped discussing the Disney live action version. But I did explain why, too:

https://swanpride.wordpress.com/2017/12/27/honoring-the-heroine-belle/