The Biology, Agriculture, and Paleontology thread

Blood pressure is a quite troublesome issue (well, for humans more than for anything else, due to having to battle gravity due to our vertical posture, as well as some weird sexual selection that ended up making us even more vunerable).

Independant systemic hearts makes regulation harder. There is a reason there is a noticeable trend in evolution that foregoes redundancy by centralizing stuff and making more complex organs.

I notice that you say that it's "harder", not "impossible".

Accounting for falsiability.

Nature has its way to find some ridiculous niches

Rubisco is a thing after all.

Okay, then suppose a storywriter wants to justify having two systemic hearts be superior to just one in a Shown Their Work way that maintains Willing Suspension of Disbelief even for those who know enough about biology to know why we don't have any animal species that naturally have two systemic hearts. What would they have to do?

You mean "falsifiability", right?

Edited by MarqFJA on Dec 30th 2019 at 5:37:15 PM

I do

In so far as bioengineering is concerned, if we are staying with entirely organic parts, and increased circulatory power is what is required, then I imagine adding another standard heart to the system would be easier than designing and somehow growing an entirely new, larger heart.

Note, however, that you cant just modify the heart. You have to improve the entire circulatory system.

Edited by DeMarquis on Dec 31st 2019 at 9:46:08 AM

Hearts are also quite complex, but contractile vessel walls are commonplace.

Improving the entire circulatory system as well is a given. But then that leaves us with one more question: Where would the second heart go? Do we simply hook it up to the main blood vessels that feed into and out of the first heart (i.e. the aorta, venae cavae, and pulmonary arteries and veins)?

I'd suggest you look up some embryology stuff.

... You're glossing over the fact that we're talking about the Bio-Augmentation form. As in, modifying the biology of an already grown human (adolescent at the youngest).

Edited by MarqFJA on Dec 31st 2019 at 6:45:27 PM

But, you start with the foundations. Which means... "use what is already available to build from".

Lots of options get built and unbuilt during foetal development. The trick is encouraging what you want to keep to stay long enough to get tinkered with. Hopefully without horrible side effects. Like, blood pressure through the floor and a screwy metabolism that forgets how to process calcium.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Dec 31st 2019 at 5:26:46 PM

"Where would the second heart go?"

That depends on the primary purpose the second heart is serving. If it's an emergency backup in case of primary heart failure (esp in the case of violent injury) then locating it at some remove from the primary one would minimize the chances of the same emergency compromising both hearts simultaneously. On the other hand, if increased blood pressure and circulation is the goal, then putting the two closely in tandem (so that they can more easily syncronize their pumping actions) would be preferable.

How feasible is it to do both?

?? Explain.

I mean do both functions. See, I asked this question because I've been trying to flesh out how some of the augmentations of WH40K Space Marines work, which include the implantation of a second heart; it's probably relevant to note that a full-fledged Space Marine would have their ribcage transformed into what is essentially a fully-enclosed shell of enhanced bone (presumably interlocking plates to permit breathing movements) to protect the organs within the upper torso.

Edited by MarqFJA on Jan 1st 2020 at 1:01:32 PM

Keep in mind that the Heresy novels have implied that the augmentation only has a nonzero chance of success because the gene-seed carries a bit of the Emperor’s psyker power. There is reality warping at play here.

That is why blanks cannot be made into Astartes.

A trade-off is a trade-off. You would have to decide how closely to space them based on what the mission requirements are.

The point is that it's kind of pointless to try to justify the Astartes implants — they are flat out impossible. To the point that even in canon lore it only seems to work at all because of a godlike Reality Warper's power messing around with the laws of physics and biology.

Granted if if they are posible(and I gues some of implant are) the human being will not long look like one.

People forget how tall and astartes is.

The few illustrations of I've seen of what an Astartes looks like without their armor show that the process makes them very deformed. They're arguably more intimidating without the armor.

Edited by M84 on Jan 1st 2020 at 11:35:18 PM

You are referring to edited images of them in armor that trace out the outlines of what their bodies should look like within said armor, right? Because there are more than a few other images from official source material that actually depict them unarmored, and they look more or less like an upsized version of a normal human being (albeit quite buff).

That's a disingenuous exaggeration. First, you guys haven't treated the addition of a second heart as impossible until now.

Second, the Ossmodula and Biscopea's effects on the Astartes' bones and musculature (barring the alterations to the ribcage) aren't unusual or new in the realm of Bio-Augmentation.

Third, a few of the organs have real-life analogues; for example, the Preomnor is essentially a modified version of the proventriculus or gizzard of birds and some other animal species, while the Betcher's Gland is just a souped-up version of the venom glands of many venomous animals. And of course, the Oolitic Kidney is just a superlative version of a kidney.

Just because the magnitude of the enhancements may reach seemingly absurd levels doesn't automatically render the enhancements themselves innately impossible, and shouldn't prevent us from trying to "science" them out to the best that we can. Perhaps you should see a few of Kyle Hill's Because Science videos that have him tackle various superpowers and the like and figure out the closest real-life analogue to them (even if only theoretical).

Why even bother though? Trying to figure out a way to make the Astartes transformation scientifically plausible is kind of missing the point of 40K. They are a blatant case of Art Major Biology.

Edited by M84 on Jan 3rd 2020 at 12:05:13 AM

Because I like it when Art Major Biology uses a dose of Truth in Television and Shown Their Work as part of its foundation.

Edited by MarqFJA on Jan 2nd 2020 at 11:47:24 PM