French Politics

A quick check, if the refusal had been for secular reasons of just being sexist I assume that they’d also have failed? Like I said, this shouldn’t be about religion, it should be about us not wanting more people in society who promote the dangerous and toxic ideas of gender segregation.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

No idea, because no one has been dumb enough to make such a claim for non-religion based reasons so far.

But now that this happened, yeah, you can bet that an atheist misandrist refusing to touch the hand of the official will get the same treatment. Even though such a person is unlikely to exist, never mind to be in a situation to ask for French citizenship.

Given the amount of native-born French people I've known in my time who don't shake hands as a matter of course, I'm not sure the wording of this statement consists of entirely valid reasoning.

(Yes, I know what her cited reason was, but your post doesn't discuss the actual reason which makes your statement a bit to blanket-case for me.)

edited 22nd Apr '18 10:00:14 AM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

See, I am someone who avoids handshakes if possible myself. But I also have an understanding that there are setting in which they are expected. So guess what, I can overcome my own distaste for them in order to NOT send the sign to someone that I reject him or her.

And I'm exactly the same. That wasn't my point, however.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Let's put it this way: If the reason had be "I have a phobia and just can't bring myself to do it", that would be a different situation. And maybe it would have been arguable if the reason had been "I don't touch anyone, ever". But the reasoning given was sexist, and religion is no excuse for sexism.

X3 You can also probably explain you’re dislike of shaking hands without resorting to talking about how society should be segregated by gender.

There are lots of good reasons not to shake hands, the other person being of the opposite gender is not one of them.

edited 22nd Apr '18 10:10:39 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

That was the case in Switzerland that was referenced earlier.

There are also a lot of native born criminals and bigots. Doesn't mean a nation has to grant citizenship for people who are criminals or bigots.

Note the wording of my post. As my second paragraph clearly states, I was referring to the generalised (motive-missing) wording of Swanpride's response, not the specific case in question.

There are plenty of entirely innocent or acceptable reasons for why people may not engage in hand-shaking behaviour. Gender-segregation isn't one of them, which is why I excluded it from my post.

edited 22nd Apr '18 1:17:27 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I would.

People have a right to be assholes, so long as they don't impose their assholery on anyone else. And refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex, another race, whatever, is being an asshole, but it's also not imposing yourself on anyone else.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.

But people also have the right not to invite assholes in their homes.

Absolutely.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.

Refusing to shake hands without a very good reason — as in "I just sneezed in it" and not "I believe in religiously mandated gender segregation even though I want to be a citizen in a secular nation" — is pretty rude. And hey, if you're not willing to do a thing that gets you citizenship that almost nobody else has had a problem with doing...well, you shouldn't be too shocked when you don't get citizenship.

edited 22nd Apr '18 11:05:43 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

Hey, it's legal not to shake the official's hand, the woman is not going to jail. She's not gonna get a passport either.

So there is nothing illegal here.

A migrant who saved a four-years-old in an apartment was offered French citizenship, by the president himself no less.

This is an incredibly nice move, but I would like to see French tropers' opinions on the matter. Is this a norm or an exception?

I would call it mostly a PR stunt, especially since the rescue was filmed and got viral, but yeah, it has happened before.

Very few French people except the most rabid far-righters would argue against a "sans-papiers" getting rewarded for heroism with citizenship.

There is literally another example mentioned below the article.

And honestly, why not? The Guardian had a scathing opinion piece about it, but I can't think of a better way to show that someone would most likely be a worthy member of society than said person risking his live and exposure for someone else. True there are certainly a lot of refugees who would do the same but never end up in a situation like this, but that doesn't mean that you should not reward one of them when it does happen...plus, punishing someone for doing something heroic would be a poor reward and they can hardly just ignore him being in the country without papers, so they had to make a decision.

I agree, it does look more like a PR stunt than anything else.

Of course it's a PR stunt. Does it matter ? Whatever it may be , it's a move without any foreseeable negative effect.

If the opinion piece you read is the same one I read, the writer is not being scathing about the man being awarded citizenship, he's being scathing about Macron's statement and the implications of that statement (intended or not).

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

It's a cheap shot. You can by cynical about gestures like this, but it is kind of rich to talk about implied racism in statements which are absolutely neutral. And, frankly, a moment like this should be highlighted, not for the sake of Macron, but because we need a counterpoint to the narratives the far right likes to build around the refugees.

What is really funny (in a sad sort of way) about this whole story are the reactions of some conspiracy nuts.

As for the guy getting his citizenship, I agree it is a PR stunt, but Macron had little other options. And the guy certainly deserves it.

edited 29th May '18 12:10:05 PM by C105

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.

Well, not everyone agrees you.

Personally, I don't have many issues with it and it's not the first time France has done this, but I wouldn't call Macon's statement 'neutral' either.

edited 29th May '18 3:42:54 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

An armed man has taken at least two hostages in Paris, police are responding. No reports about any terror links yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/12/europe/paris-incident-intl/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

The big news today in France was the burial of Simone Veil in the Panthéon in Paris, only the fifth woman to receive such a honor.

Holocaust survivor, former health minister, feminist and political activist, Simone Veil is well-most remembered for leading the fight to legalize abortion in France in 1975.