Matti23
Interesting strategy for the XB. Sounds like a good idea. I was wondering what effect you think the new tech (similar to what the 50 nations are using) as well as the need for the ESA to redeploy some of its forces to the American front might have? Would they be able to launch a significant resistance following the fall of their power block?
Good point, the story's gone through so many revisions that the name might no longer be relevant. The successor to the Ottoman Empire is called the Sahar Union or Sahra Sendika and a coalition of West African nations south of it is now called the SSC.
Hadn't really thought about where it sits on the scale. Probably leaning towards an equal mix of plausible and artistic licence.
Deus Deno, currently I was just planning to write a few stories set at different points in the timeline. I haven't really thought about what else I might do with the setting.
edited 17th Jun '16 6:30:38 AM by matti23
When I visited the Chitzen Itza a while back the guide showed us a stone relief of a man with a beard he claimed was a Viking who ultimately was worshiped as the Mayan god Quetzalcoatl. Since then I've read of other evidence that the Vikings did visit that part of America 1000 years ago. What if they had introduced iron-working, wheeled carts, sheep, cattle, and horses to the local people. Also what if they introduced the native Americans to some of the European diseases long before Columbus? Things might have been dicey for a while as sickness ravaged the local population and the small number of domestic animals inbred but eventually things would have stabilized. By the time Cortez got to Mexico City he might have faced chariot mounted warriors with iron swords and spears and at least some resistance to the diseases that his men carried. How might that have affected the history of America and the world?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If it was a relatively, friendly, collaborative coalition like, for example, Switzerland, then after they fell I think they would be able to launch a unified, coordinated resistance.
Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya and Tanzania are an interesting choice of countries. Your XB came into existence before Europe conquered Africa, so of course the African states that compose it will be different and have different relationships with each other than what they have in real life. Therefore, to have a strong resistance (entirely plausible IMO) I think you have to consider how the nations/peoples of XB were cooperative before they fell, and how they therefore continue that spirit of cooperation after they fell. So if Addis Ababa was the capital of XB, then the leadership of the revolution might be from the survivors of the ESA invasion in Addis Ababa who keep the spirit of XB alive. Or maybe the Kikuyu
were fiercest in resisting the ESA in this timeline so they become the spiritual heart of the resistance. There are a lot of different angles you can approach it from, I guess.
edited 9th Oct '14 8:40:37 PM by editerguy
Matti23
The XB
Editerguy, thanks for the feedback, you have made some good points. The nations of XB had a friendly and collaborative coalition around the time the Europeans attacked (reinforced by the fear of the ESA which was steadily advancing towards their borders). During the XB invasion, joint plans were made for resisting the ESA if they fell. After the fall of the XB its people vowed to keep resisting, over time forging an unified identity, sharing information, weapons and moving through each other's land when necessary.Good idea about the resistance, might make it so the survivors from Addis Ababa and Mogadishu could provide the bulk of the fighters and equipment whilst the leadership is split between these two and the Kikuyu people, who are the spiritual heart of the resistance.
Cartography in the power blocks
Deus Deno, interesting point about the cartography. The collective states in this setting tended to share their cartography information. Early on, a single state from the XB or 50 Nations had limited means of mapping a large area, but each state in the community mapped their own area and some of the surrounding landscape. The information got shared either directly or crossed borders during centuries of trade and a composite map of the area was formed. I was wondering whether this cooperation would be plausible and be sufficient to generate a usable map of each power block and some of its surroundings?Expansion of the FN
Good point about the FN finding it difficult to get forces up to the Mississippi on their own. I'm thinking of changing the situation in America a little. I was wondering how plausible the current loss of territory is, even with the aid of the Asian powers. How far west the might the FN actually have been able to go? If it's too implausible I might just have the FN retake the Rockies and westward up to the level of the land claimed by the Comanche.The loss of territory to the FN up to the Mississippi was partially due to the decreased ability for the ESA to project military power into that area. The Rockies were heavily populated by enslaved Native Americans or resistance fighters with the ESA's and in particular the United States' military power depleted over the course of the AU World War. The ESA military and police were unable to hold the occupied land and control reverted to the majority FN population. A few years after this process began the FN were able to send some forces to fight east of the Rockies.
Over many years the Asian powers and the FN destroyed large buildups of ESA troops up to the Mississippi. The Asian powers primarily focused on destroying the ability of the ESA to project power across the Mississippi (focusing on ESA military assets), providing assistance (weapons, support against large ESA attacks, extra manpower where needed etc.) so the local Native American communities could hold the land. The locals sometimes held the land via raids on ESA settlements which refused to cooperate, making life difficult as ESA reinforcements were targeted by FN and Asian forces. On some occasions small raiding parties were provided by the FN and the Asian powers where the locals were unable to hold the land. Some ESA communities were forced to follow the FN in this manner, with subsequent eastward waves migration over the years, as well as enforced population control measures on ex-ESA citizens consolidating their hold on the land. Some communities which refused to cooperate or rebelled against FN rule had their citizens forced to relocate further east. This process was aided by the small ESA population in West America. The United States' population (like IRL) had the highest concentrations nearer to its east coast. What do you think of this strategy? Were there any other strategies that could be employed to secure West America for the Native Americans? How might the ESA try to counteract these tactics?
AU World War
The AU World War was a multi decade conflict which was composed of frequent and long periods of war across the world with short periods of less intense fighting (sometimes a complete but temporary lull in places) and rebuilding. It was like the IRL Hundred Years War, although significantly shorter and larger in scale. The taking of West America was a gradual creep rather than a sudden rush to the Mississippi.The expansion of the Mongolian Empire and its Asian allies late in the war got as far as Karkiv and Rostov. Some of the Ukraine was taken in an initial expansion with troops threatening Poland and Belarus. This initial advance past Karkiv and Rostov was eventually beaten back by the ESA defenders. The decades of fighting in Asia, Africa and the Americas had drawn large amounts of ESA troops far away from their core territories. This advance induced panic in the ESA leadership and lead to a mass recalling of the bulk of their troops to defend Europe, in particular leaving North America more vulnerable as the French and British forces left North America to help defend their home territories.
Deus Deno, I might use the name "Assembled Nations of the World" (ANW) to refer to the nations fighting against the ESA, although initially they were more a collection of nations that happened to be fighting the ESA than a coordinated faction.
What do you think about Hanse [1] as a name for Germany in this setting?
Zo Otie, interesting concept. Curious to know what kind of things happen in that setting. What kind of factions are there?
edited 22nd Dec '15 8:48:33 PM by matti23
Feel free to post below if you have anything to discuss or any questions about Alternate History but otherwise heres a scenario:
You are a Chinese or Korean leader in this scenario, proceed to rebuild your civilization.
Here's something meta, an alternate history of the last alternate history posted. Point of divergence: 200 years after the initial point of divergence (roughly 1400 AD), another border guard opens the gates for the Mongolian Empire and the Mongolians proceed to flood in and conquer China (damn shifty border guards 
).
As Chinese civilization collapses and Korea falls under the influence of the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty refugees stream out of both countries towards the new land discovered earlier (Korea helping China maintain the peace treaty has not put Korea in a good position with the Mongolians). Groups arrive in the West America, East Africa and North Australia. The West American groups head east, out of the territories of the FN (a highly developed power block of Native Americans), the East African arrivals head west out of the XB (highly developed East Africans) and the North Australians head south out of the developed Aboriginal Australian nations that have appeared in North Australia. All of these groups desire to create a new homeland where they can live.
Each individual group at the start of the scenario (there are several for each of the three regions) is comprised of 1000 Chinese or Korean refugees who arrived with as much material as they could take on a treasure ship and an appropriate sized fleet for this many people. The treasure ships are either from a collection of wealthy people who want to escape or given to the refugees as part of a desperate effort by the remnant of the Chinese and Korean governments to preserve their culture. The Korean and Chinese governments have realized that their countries are doomed and are devoting resources to holding the Mongolians at bay whilst pouring every resource they have left into the escape programs. Decide how large a fleet these 1000 people could scrape together to escape the collapse and what type of people you've taken with you. What type of materials did you manage to pack beforehand?
Choose a group and discuss how they may survive through the ages. How may they deal with the locals living on the land? How will they manage their colony? How will you deal with other refugee groups in your area? You've got about 100 years before the nations of Europe start to explore (the ESA does not exist yet so they're still divided), how will you deal with them? The Yuan dynasty will be hostile towards Han Chinese or Koreans who have fled during the collapse and will be not be happy if they detect a nation of these people outside their zone of influence. On arrival the colonists lose contact with their home nations as their governments collapse. How might you deal with the Government in China and Korea when the Chinese and Koreans retake their land? About 5000 more refugees will arrive in each of these regions following your own group's arrival, spread over a 20 year period.
Try not to get all your colonists killed by dysentery!
edited 23rd Oct '14 8:54:36 PM by matm
Raven Wilder
I gotta ask how the spread of disease works when the Chinese start colonizing North America. If it's anything like when the Europeans landed, then even without death by conquest, you can expect the indigenous population to take a pretty massive hit, enough to create borderline post-apocalyptic conditions.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Interesting question, the three individiual groups in America would probably fare differently:
The FN have cities of comparable density of some cities in Europe and individual nations in the FN have populations numbering in the millions. When refugees from China and Korea arrive, they had already been trading partners with Asia for more than a century and probably will have less risk of contracting diseases from the refugees. Thier population density means that a disease outbreak locally may actually threaten the arrivals.
Those people living directly next to FN nations will have regular contact with FN citizens and probably will be immune to most diseases the group brings with them. The lower population density here means that it's less likely there will be a local disease outbreak.
Those living furthest away from the FN will have the least resistance to the diseases brought by the newcomers. Great care would have to be taken with the arrivals to prevent exactly the situation you suggested, an apocalyptic (for the local community) disease outbreak.
edited 24th Oct '14 7:46:49 AM by matm
Raven Wilder
I was thinking more about disease sweeping the continent when China makes contact, not when the Europeans do. My understanding is that most of the diseases that ravaged North America were those that could be found throughout Eurasia, so Chinese settlers would probably spread them just as quickly as Europeans. So the formation of the 53 Nations is gonna be occurring at about the same time that 80 to 90% of the population dies from disease.
edited 24th Oct '14 2:09:21 AM by RavenWilder
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
The nations of Asia discovered America and Africa roughly 50 years after the first point of divergence and 150 years before the second point of divergence (the fall of China and Korea). In between these two events contact would be primarily through traders and small teams of explorers rather than settlers. You have a good point about the disease though, might 150 years be long enough for any disease brought to America to burn itself out or for the locals to become resistant to the prevalent strains of disease from Asia?
First contact would be with a West America that has a low population density and whose people might not have a tendency to travel long distances. These factors would limit the spread of disease somewhat. The development of the denser population FN civilizations might occur following the worst of the diseases passing. I might have the FN just beginning to recover a few decades prior when the large waves of refugees starting to arrive.
Raven Wilder
More limited activity by the Chinese might buy you some time before certain diseases get introduced to the continent, but once they're out there you can expect them to spread across the land very quickly.
150 years should be enough time for resistances to build up, but even after the epidemics are over, it will be a long while before the population is more than a fraction of what it was pre-contact.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Good point Raven Wilder, I'm amending the scenario so that the refugees travel through an FN that has been ravaged by disease. The FN can be a group of survivors pooling their resources to help recover from the effects of these diseases.
The FN come out of this period with the tech and know how to build large scale farms and have their metallurgical and production abilities improve during centuries of trade. With this new tech and the FN governments encouraging their people to rebuild and repopulate, how long would it be until their nations can recover to pre-contact levels or even to the millions of people a country level?
With this development, the gunpowder and other weapon tech procured from Asia, how much of a help would the FN be in the event that the ESA forms in this timeline? Can the formation of the ESA be prevented and would such action be likely to happen in this timeline?
edited 25th Oct '14 9:38:17 PM by matm
A world where during the American Revolutionary War Col Johann Rall did not fail to read a message warning that George Washington and his soldiers were approaching as he did IRL. George Washington and most of the founding fathers are promptly killed during the following battle and America never leaves the British Empire.
edited 31st Oct '14 5:08:46 AM by zepv
Matti23
Siberia is separate from Russia. During the AU World War Russia attempts to attack it as part of its war against United Asia. In an allohistorical reversal the Russian expeditionary force is decimated by the Siberian winter during the course of the campaign. They were harassed by resistance forces and United Asian reinforcements and finally experience a crushing defeat at a heavily fortified Siberian city near IRL Bratsk (like a reversed battle of Stalingrad where Russia is the invader).
The collective territories of the three Siberian nations goes west to the Ural Mountains and the southern border runs roughly around what we would know as Chelyabinsk, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Lake Baikal, Vitim River and the Stanovoy Khrebet. The Eastern border roughly follows the Verkhoyanskiy Khrebet. Populated by the original Siberian inhabitants as well as Russian, Mongolian and Korean explorers, traders and immigrants. These arrivals caused accelerated technological development in Siberia. The population in the equivalent of the year 2000 is 92 million.
edited 3rd Nov '14 7:09:34 PM by matti23
A type X alternate history where the Europeans actually discovered everything they claimed to have discovered. In this AH there are no races living outside of Europe. Due to a smaller population devoted to developing tech and a lack of assists from civilizations such Egypt (which helped with the development of Greece) development is slower in this timeline. Greek civilization starts roughly in what we would call the year 5000 AD and the golden age of exploration in Northern Europe occurs in 12500 AD. Greece uses this massive advantage to expand and colonize Africa, the Middle East and a rough area corresponding to the Balkans. This area is not a single nation but several disparate nations with their own factions.
Iceland discovers Greenland and America in 10000 AD and proceeds to colonize North and South America in a similar fashion. The disunified nations of Russia are easy prey to the nations of Eastern Europe as they expand eastwards. After fighting between these Eastern European nations Poland unites most of Russia under its control. The discovery of Asia by Italy disrupts the balance of power in the world and leads to war.
edited 2nd Nov '14 10:30:29 PM by matm
Zootie, the previous poster seems to have a good point. It might take roughly 2 centuries to the Native Indians to recover. Iron swords and spears would definitely make the Native Americans a bigger threat to the colonists, but eventually guns might still prevail.
I'm curious what the community thinks about the ability of Siberia being able to fight off the Russians, even with support from United Asia? The Russians in that story would definitely have some support from the rest of Europe. Would winter be enough to even out the odds? If anyone can manage fighting in the Siberian winter it would be the Russians.
If this [1] counts as a type X alternate history then a story I've written probably counts too. A world where the only land above sea level is the British Isles and Japan. Most resources are in the same place as IRL but underwater where applicable. There's large oil deposits under the ocean in the area corresponding to the Middle East and lots of underwater iron ore where Australia would have been.
Both Britain and Japan fail to find each other until the information age, which takes a while due to a severe lack of lumber, people and resources. Britain overtakes Japan by a large margin and spots Japan first on a satellite scan of the earth. Finding another landmass and people really blows their mind.
edited 3rd Nov '14 8:57:49 PM by zepv
...can still bite
I have an idea for an alternate Biblical history (this obviously assumes that Yahweh is a real god whose actions have an affect on history, and also that the Biblical version of history is true).
In The Bible, the Israelites fail to annihilate all the Canaanite nations and drive out the rest, making some slaves and failing to conquer others. They are described as The Dreaded at the time of the conquest of Canaan, but after they become unfaithful during the time of the judges Yahweh allows other nations to win against them and they quickly lose this status. When this gets worse under the Davidic dynasty, God has the kingdom first be split and then finally conquered and passed on as a territory to each successive empire and the heirs of David become commoners.
So what if things happened differently? What if the Israelites really did annihilate and conquer everyone and everything in their path, and kept their status as The Dreaded throughout history. (It is interesting to note that the descendants of Canaan included the inhabitants of Sidon and Tyre, otherwise known as the Phoenicians, you know, the guys who developed the phonetic alphabet, founded a trading empire, and founded the city of Carthage. Just imagine the Butterfly Effect caused by them being wiped out before 1400 BCE.) What if the kingdom was never split and never conquered, enduring as an independent nation even down to the Roman age? What if Jesus was the adopted son of a king instead of a carpenter?
edited 5th Nov '14 5:47:27 PM by shiro_okami
Matti23
I would imagine that the Israelite Empire would replace Carthage as an enemy of Rome. How far they expand past the promised land might depend on how much assistance they receive from God, could be anywhere from domination over a significant portion of the entire world, sacking Rome (they do have god on their side) or just staying within 10 km of the promised land.
Jesus would probably bring an end to the aggressive expansion of the Israelite Empire. What happens next depends on how many Jews convert to Christianity. The Israelite Empire will probably become the Christian Empire at that point.
On another note, in my AU due to the vastly different pattern of development disasters take a completely different meaning. Due to the world being 80 years ahead of IRL technologically the Tunguska Event asteroid was detected by various Near Earth Object Programs across the world (this world's 1908 has 1988 tech). News gets out that the calculated impact could be as high as 30 megatons. The nations of the world are unable to determine exactly where it will impact. With a mere 6 months warning only limited information is able to be gathered from astronomical studies and calculations falsely give a low probability of impact with the most likely scenario a near miss. The reaction following this is similar to the IRL reaction to the approach of 99942 Apophis. The asteroid eventually hits Siberia as it did IRL. Due to AU Siberia being more highly developed, instead of the impact site being empty of people, there are several towns nearby and 30,000 people are killed by the impact with many more injured or made homeless.
The threat of an Asteroid impact is taken much more seriously in future. Near Earth Object Programs to become much better funded in future and an international organisation is formed to develop and eventually deploy the technology needed to prevent such an impact. The world's reaction to the approach of 99942 Apophis in 2004 is an international mission to divert the asteroid (the AU tech is equivalent to IRL 2084).
The event happened at a crucial time in international relations, with United Asia and the United States being involved in a Cuban Missile Crisis style standoff a few years prior over involvement in a South American conflict (one was allied to the UA the other to the US). The event helped to draw the attention of these factions away from each other and forced them to work together. It may not have completely repaired relations but a few years spent focusing on defending the world against another asteroid strike as well as their mutual ally, the Canadian rebels needing both of their aid to fight against the Teutonic Pact helped to cool off UA/US relations.
edited 2nd Dec '14 5:33:54 PM by matti23
An AH where an incident didn't destroy 2/3 of Hannibal's army before his invasion of Rome. He later chooses to stay in Rome, ignoring Carthage's request for aid when Scipio attacks (his main power base was in Spain). This allows Hannibal to conquer Rome, eventually returning to Scipio occupied Carthage to take back the city.
This universe has no major European powers, with North African and Middle Eastern nations taking the place that the powers of Europe would have had IRL. Britian and France have been replaced by Carthage and Persia respectively. Europe is comprised of third world nations ruled by bickering warlords and resembles the political situation in IRL Africa. The European region is polytheist with Christianity mainly taking hold in the region surrounding Persia.
The Mongolian Empire eventually reaches the middle eastern and Mediterranean regions but Carthaginians are able to hold Spain and some fortified coastal cities in Rome. North America, South America and Australia are eventually colonized by Carthage, although like IRL these regions gain independence from their home nation.
edited 28th Nov '14 11:35:33 PM by matm
Sounds like a pretty big error for the astrophysicist to make, what are the chances that somebody would make an error like that? Wondering if anyone has any idea how a world with 80's technology would go about trying to divert the Tunguska Event asteroid. 12 Months warning, whilst being more than you might usually get for an asteroid is very short time to plan, build and deploy a system to divert it.
An alternate history where Nazi Germany and Russia ally together during World War 2. This eventually leads to an axis victory and leads to a massive World War 3 between 5 empires that have completely conquered the world. The Empire of Japan is destroyed first, then the Ottoman Empire and Italian Empire. The Nazis are the last to be destroyed leaving Russia in control of the entire world.
edited 2nd Dec '14 7:01:53 PM by zepv
I'm not sure whether only 12 months counts as too short. The Ace Combat verse had five years of advance warning for an asteroid impact, yet they still failed to completely prevent it with all the various countermeasures they built - mostly due to having failed to detect that the asteroid was hollow and will break up as it enters the atmosphere until it was too late to revise the countermeasures.
Matti23
IRL the Japanese code of Honor today is strongly affected by a book by Nitobe Inazo, written in 1905. Similar to the European code of honor, the book describes the rules written for Samurai to follow and represent their ideal, not how many actually lived. In this universe this book has not been written and the legend of the Samurai is very different. Stories in the AH describe samurai as Han Solo type heroes who were highly pragmatic. In some cases following what they personally think was the right thing to do, or what was best for themselves rather than what was honorable.
On another note, the ANW eventually becomes that world's equivalent of the UN. Roughly 120 years after the AH World War ends eventually everyone joins the ANW, including America and the Teutonic Pact.
The main story ends at 1920. The moon landings occur roughly around 1900 (equivalent in tech to IRL 1980). A distant epilogue skips to a project to construct a space elevator. There are two stages, a research and development stage from 1960 to 2000 (equivalent in tech to IRL 2040 to 2080). The second stage starts in the year 2000 and involves preparing the infrastructure and the elevator itself. The story ends with an international event where the foundations of factories begin to be laid and a ceremony at the planned location of the space elevator's base. It is a joint project of the ANW. What do you think of this timetable?
edited 24th Dec '14 8:02:56 AM by matti23
The moon landings IRL were in the 1960's so that universe is actually slower than real life. This is probably reasonable given the massive world war spanning several decades and people possibly having other priorities at the time. The Space Elevator seems reasonable.
Looked into some resources on European influence on Japan. Looks like the AU Japan would be unrecognizable. The concept of death before dishonor may be exist strongly in the minds of the people and some of their work habits would be completely different. Prior to European contact the merchants were considered not one of the more respected classes in society and there was less emphasis on commerce.
edited 28th Dec '14 4:08:05 AM by zepv
Matti23
In my AH there is a nation in South America called the Latin Cities. They are the remnant of the Spanish invaders during the age of colonization. A few years after the AH World War the native South American nations, thinking that the LC were no longer a threat went back to squabbling amongst themselves and split up into smaller power blocks. After the temporary collapse of United Asia a few decades later, the Latin Cities begin expanding back into the rest of South America. There are 12 cities in the LC and the average population of a city is 3.5 million.
There are two main factions in the Latin Cities. One seeks to avoid conflict, under the view that enough attacks and conquest in South America will create a continental alliance that might destroy them. They seek to create a relationship of peaceful coexistence based on what eventually developed between Fifty Nations and United States. This faction is currently in power and has relinquished small amounts of land to the Second Inca Empire as a sign of goodwill.
The other faction is expansionist and seeks to recover the land that they lost in the World War. They acknowledge that a continental alliance would be a threat and seek to conquer the surrounding nations before they can get their act together. They do not think that the native South Americans would tolerate their existence once they achieve a position of power.
My question is that with such an alliance currently in the process of forming, would it be plausible that the expansionist faction would attempt to launch an armed rebellion against the government, weakening their armed forces in the face of such a powerful external threat? Would it be plausible that South America would take roughly 30 years to unify whilst being under constant attack from the LC? The LC had previously attempted to play the nations of South America against each other in a manner similar to Dona Marina IRL.
edited 14th Jan '15 3:48:52 AM by matti23
If the expansionist faction really believes that the other South American factions are out to get them, an alliance would make them more likely to launch a revolt, in order to preserve their country. The IRL equivalent of the LC managed to keep the South Americans fighting against each other until they conquered the entire continent so the continental alliance appearing after a sustained 30 years of being attacked is actually much better and more coordinated than IRL.
I'm sure a European Strategic Alliance would be too powerful for East Africa to survive a direct conflict, but IRL's Ethiopia (which presumably would dominate XB due to its size and power) basically had its entire strategy premised on diplomacy and avoiding direct conflict with European powers. I imagine XB would likely just sit there amassing weapons and strengthening its defensive capabilities until Europe just flat-out invaded them. In that case they would presumably lose.
In regard to the SSC, Egypt, Libya and Algeria are not Sub Saharan. The North Africa Coalition might make more sense as a name.
I hope this was helpful. Out of curiosity, though, where do you want your project to sit on a scale between Strictly Plausible Alternate History and Rule of Cool AU?
edited 7th Oct '14 6:00:05 AM by editerguy