Eastern European Politics

Say what you want about the Prequels, and I have done so myself a lot, but it is impressive how relevant some their messages are to this day.

This crisis and its' consequences might be decisive for the future of the EU. In addition to a potential an economic fallout, we could very well see the further erosion of democracy in some of its' more fragile countries.

Better thread for this;

Maybe once we have sane leadership again we could more directly intervene in Hungarian politics. It shouldn't be all that controversial to smash up a Nazi Dictatorship. And that's all Orban is shaping up to be.

Either that or, if it's not an option, just do anything and everything possible to slide Orban out of office.

Edited by NickTheSwing on Mar 30th 2020 at 4:00:21 AM

I am not really optimistic about this, considering the high requirements for any EU sanctions against Hungary, especially with Poland backing Orban.

Doing something specifically against Orban to get him out of office should be pretty much impossible. But who knows, if he goes so overtly authoritarian that not even Warsaw can support him without losing face, then this might become possible. However things would have to go very, very wrong before that becomes realistic.

Edited by Zarastro on Mar 30th 2020 at 4:34:04 PM

US wouldn't get away with that kind of interventionism even if they had any soft power left unless Hungary or any other European country started setting up concentration camps or other, let alone when they're captained by an Orange Turd.

I mean, Belarus is a literal communist state just sitting there since the 90's, and no one's ever done anything about it ever. For now I can only hope that Poland doesn't follow the same route, even though the country is already shadow-led by a single man anyway.

Edited by FergardStratoavis on Mar 31st 2020 at 2:32:07 PM

The unfortunate problem is that we've lost the clear doctrine of "if you're illegally suppressing the votes of your people, and you're not China or the Soviet Union, we will bring you down so hard you'll smash into the mantle." We need a global force committed to that ideal and not including the above two powers, like the UN was supposed to be, and we need there to be a clear rule so that nobody has a complaint coming when tanks roll into Budapest.

That doctrine only exists when it's politically convenient. We've been comfortable with dictatorships in our structures before.

Sometimes, it's better to have principles that you fail to uphold consistently than to not have the principle. Of course, consistently upholding the principle of democratic elections would have been even better.

Given that Hungary is for better or for worse still in the EU, I think the EU would have a few things to say if the US decided to try anything.

That said, even this case aside, "intervene whenever you see a threat to democracy" is a double-edged sword and opens the country practicing it to criticism as well, even when consistently followed. And there are those in Hungary who still feel the US abandoned them back in 1956 when we declared we'd secede from the Warsaw Pact but with the Suez Crisis having gone by without them really getting mixed up in it, the US couldn't do a damn thing (or the Soviets would have immediately said "If England and France can do it so can I").

Exactly. If you force freedom down a country's throat, you are still arbitrarily making a choice for them.

In other words, if freedom is the only choice you're allowed to have, can it really be called freedom?

Democracy: It's not a choice.

Memes aside, however, if a dictator does not allow his people to express their will through free and fair elections (internationally monitored), then how would you determine whether a country's people would voluntarily support their dictator?

You're right that intervention needs to be employed with care (such as when an election is blatantly stolen, or the regime is using its military against its own people - for example, Syria when Assad used chemical weapons was a clear and unambiguous casus belli), but the tool needs to be there for the norm to mean anything.

You're also right that Hungary isn't at that point. Which is why I shouldn't be the one ordering interventions.

Edited by Ramidel on Mar 31st 2020 at 9:51:01 AM

Isn't Hungary one of those countries that is facing a significant youth exodus (especially those with higher levels of education)? Once the pandemic cools down, couldn't that intensify?

My disgruntled attitude lies more towards the fact of one specific form of government being arbitrarily declared objectively superior to everything else despite making it even easier for demagogues to come to power through means and instituting a state of affairs that are clearly and blatantly morally wrong, yet legally unassailable.

Democracy is meant to stop abuse of power, yet it does anything but. Hence my growing general disgust of democracy as time goes on because everyone just whines on and on about how terrible things are, but nobody actually does anything about it because they can't due to their own rules. If the community's reaction to issues with the system is to quietly ignore the problems and kick them down the road for someone else to fix, then the system itself is wrong and needs to be replaced. Because the longer they keep ignoring the problems, the worse the consequences are going to get and it's going to be the future generations who are going to suffer for it.

Edited by amitakartok on Mar 31st 2020 at 8:12:16 PM

churchill.txt

Yes and theoretically yes, due to several factors (impact of the pandemic on the economy or this whole "do what you want" bill being but two).

Sorry for the doublepost but, just in case anyone thought they actually mean it when they say "but this is only going to last until Corona stops, promise!"... remember that state of emergency they declared due to migrants back in 2015?

The one that is quietly still in effect?

Yeah they've extended it in early March, and now they've allocated like 8.6 billion in HUF for "dealing with mass migration". (Source in Hungarian.)

Some data from the last paragraph:

"According to the official Police website, on the 13. week of 2020 (that is, as per most recent data) 20 cases forbidden bordercrossings have been prevented, further 73 migrants have been held up then escorted to one of the gates of the border fence, and 5 migrants have been caught, arrested then put under legal procedure."

...okay, I've seen some shit before but this takes the cake.

13 EPP members have issued a joint statement condemning this recent legislative move giving the Hungarian govt unlimited rule-by-decree powers - and within 24 hours, the govt issued a statement that they AGREE.

Let me repeat this: the govt officially expressed support of condemnation directed at themselves, both in Hungarian and in English. The article I read this from outright called this "troll diplomacy" and I gotta agree.

Edited by amitakartok on Apr 2nd 2020 at 3:09:25 PM

I'm not sure if this is:

• deliberate trolling from their part
• if they are too stupid to realize the open letter is about them
• they are really so deluded that they believe they did nothing wrong
• they only signed so that they can say "you can't do anything about this law of ours see this thing we signed condemning extreme measures!"

I'm going with trolling. At this point, they're probably right that nobody is going to do anything about Hungary.

An interesting situation. A few days ago, Donald Tusk remarked in an interview that with the recent "unlimited rule by decree" thing, Orbán and co. achieved such total control that Carl Schmitt would be proud.

To that, Fidesz' Propaganda Machine replied by publishing an article that Tusk's grandfather was a Nazi collaborator, using a photo from a Polish hoax site as "evidence" that's actually been officially disproven more than 15 years ago (as the guy on the photo is wearing an SS uniform and there's no way the SS would accept a Polish member in 1939). Said article was even borrowed by the state media TV.

Poland is screaming bloody murder right now, with one Polish newspaper outright demanding an apology right on the front page.

Edited by amitakartok on Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:04:19 AM

The Speaker of the House is going full pants-on-head-retarded territory once again. A few days after making a highly sexist remark aimed at a female MP (specifically, that he considers her recent actions pitiful and that "it's the saddest thing for a man to see the face of a woman contorted by hatred"), he now declared that the opposition, the EU and even Soros are all just cogs in the machine of a globalist anti-national deep state.

Isn't Hungary depending on Poland's veto to avoid EU sanctions?

Sloppy, sloppy.

The current Polish govt are the ones who invented that accusation circa 2006.

[Wrong thread]

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on May 10th 2020 at 2:56:14 PM

Orbán has been summoned by the EP to explain the rule-by-decree law. The hearing is scheduled for 9 AM this Thursday.

Orbán declined to attend, citing that all his energies are taken up by leading domestic efforts against the pandemic.

Which didn't prevent him from traveling to Belgrade and meeting with the Serbian PM, mind you. There, he claimed that he will give his emergency powers back to Parliament by the end of this month and will expect apologies from all those who claimed that he will use emergency powers in bad faith.

Me, I'm highly skeptical of that, but will wait.