The General Russia Thread

Could you please elaborate on that statement?

I assume that is a reference to Georgia, Chechnya, and Ukraine, although for Russian tropers, your mileage will probably vary on the definitions of "invade" and "other countries".

Especially when it comes to Georgia, there is a strong argument for it being an intervention similar to Kosovo instead of an invasion akin to Iraq.

As for economic model. It makes sense, the Chinese model functions largely based on strong state control and that's useful for Russia. The 'Western' model largely trusts the economy to an establish middle class and a strong business class that while certainly able to go nuts has nothing on what Russian Oligarchs get up to. Hell state control is particularly handy when it comes to natural resources, which Russia has a lot of.

I'd definitely consider Ukraine an invasion. I think Chechnya actually is part of Russia, at least at the moment. Georgia isn't, but I agree that they are a more ambiguous example.

On another front, I have to question the fact that Shinra's response to the number of suspicious deaths of Putin's political opponents and the fact that he had the constitution changed to increase his power is simply, "well, other countries do it too".

edited 2nd Apr '15 11:34:59 AM by Hodor2

@knit Ninja'd by several posters, but to clarify I mainly meant Georgia and Ukraine. Though an argument could be made for Chechnya as it declared independence from the USSR as it was collapsing, and plenty of other states didn't suffer invasion after that.

The power grab part comes from the fact that there's nothing like a good ol' fashioned external threat to gain domestic support.

edited 2nd Apr '15 11:34:41 AM by Joesolo

Independent Chechnya was a war-torn failed state that became the arena for a whole bunch of intra-Chechen power struggles and criminal feuds. There was also a lot of ethnic cleansing that went on; the Russian population of Chechnya declined to almost nothing through a combination of murder and forced exile. Even after the Chechens kicked the Russians out, Maskhadov's government was unable to consolidate control over the Republic, and failed to stop Shamil Basayev's invasion of Dagestan. There's also the clan dynamic; the wars in Chechnya have been as much, if not more, about Chechens vs other Chechens than they have been about Russians vs Chechens

You can be generally sympathetic to the abstract cause of Chechen independence, sure, but one still needs to acknowledge that nobody was particularly interested in occupying the moral high ground during the Chechen Wars.

edited 2nd Apr '15 11:41:38 AM by Achaemenid

Good point. I wanted to list what Westerners might think of as invasions, but it's probably not fair to list Chechnya on that score for the reasons you list.

edited 2nd Apr '15 11:43:16 AM by Hodor2

China is also corrupt as hell, as long as you don't steal from the state or get caught in something that'd harm the reputation of the PRC or their earnings you're free to break as many laws as you'd wish.

Despise of having some rather tough environmental and product quality laws do you really think they are enforced? Unless some scandal abroad like contaminated baby formula or ridiculously leaded toys come to public abroad, the PRC couldn't care less as long as they got their cut of the profits.

As for Russia I don't think they use the Chinese capitalistic system, while in China the power is in the hands of the party as a whole with a few powerful groups and figureheads ruling and making some choices, but they can be replaced conforming the need.

While in Russia I see it as being an oligarchy where the economy is in the hands of several powerful groups with the aid of the President/Minister in the government, not necessarily in control by the state but having enough shared interests to form a close relationship between the Kremlin and the Oligarchs.

I dislike how the Kremlin's hypocritical stance on separatism but even I have to admit that Chechnya is better off now that it was when it was independent.

Yes and no - Russia has a really nasty history of colonialism and arguably genocide in the Caucasus, and Russians did some extremely heinous things during the Chechen Wars. Russian intelligence also fueled a good deal of the instability in Chechnya, though that doesn't excuse the local factor. My point is that the Chechen Wars defy easy categorization into heroic Russians/Chechens fighting evil Chechens/Russians. Both sides can make very legitimate complaints against the other.

Western media coverage during the war swung between both extremes; Chechen rebels were celebrated, then demonized, then celebrated again, and then finally equated with Al-Qaeda and Islamic extremism after 9/11, damned, and forgotten about.

edited 2nd Apr '15 11:56:58 AM by Achaemenid

2Joeso

Care to elaborate here, please? First of all, I think everyone would like to see your proof of Putin murdering/ordering the murder of, as you call them, "his political opponents". Also I'd like to hear, what part of the Constitution did he changed to, and I quote you, "give him power".

As for "invasions" - surely, no democratic power had ever done such a thing!

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:01:04 PM by Lyttenburgh

Regarding " Also I'd like to hear, what part of the Constitution did he changed to, and I quote you, "give him power".", does the governor appointment process count? I do recall it being changed at some point in the 2000s.

Silasw, or, if you actually don't try to bring the state lowing power into everything like it's Cold War propaganda all over again, you could also say that the Chinese model fits Russia well because it allows for an economic transition to a free market economy without much damage. Such an explanation would also fit in well with the current trends in Russia's economy, where the state is trying its damnedest to actually promote small businesses and entrepreneurship nowadays.

Joe, if you say that Chechnya was a Russian invasion, you'll also have to call the current war in Donbass a Ukrainian invasion. Likewise, if you say that Georgia was a Russian invasion, you'll have to call Kosovo a NATO invasion. And saying that Putin did all this to boost domestic support is just silly, as domestic support has been the least of his worries throughout his reign - it never went below 65%.

Archie - it's not like the Caucasian peoples weren't notorious for launching devastating raids into the Russian territory and a whole lot of really nasty barbarian stuff before Russia got anywhere near conquering Caucasus. You can't really claim that the Caucasians were morally superior there, either.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:07:03 PM by KnitTie

Yea Chechnya was a mess and I'm not disputing that. That they had an elected president get bombed doesn't really win Putin any brownie points though.

I think these discussions become more useful when one starts dropping the Tu Quoque thing.

Also, China's economy is only to some degree a free market economy. A quango-dominated economy with a side order of growing bubble is more like it.

Ancient history has little bearing on this discussion, really doesn't help.

"Joe, if you say that Chechnya was a Russian invasion, you'll also have to call the current war in Donbass a Ukrainian invasion."

No I don't, It's been Ukrainian territory for nearly a hundred years.

" Likewise, if you say that Georgia was a Russian invasion, you'll have to call Kosovo a NATO invasion."

No, I don't, Georgia wasn't in the process of a genocide.

"And saying that Putin did all this to boost domestic support is just silly, as domestic support has been the least of his worries throughout his reign - it never went below 65%. "

I can live with that.

Also, Fun fact, I DIDN'T call Chechnya a Russian invasion. I said a case could be made for that, but didn't myself. None of Those examples were at all comparable.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:13:33 PM by Joesolo

A president that was elected with 20% turnout after repressing all of his opponents? And was the head of a mafia clan?

Besides, we are still waiting for you to give us some proof of Putin murdering his political opponents.

Tu Quoque is a perfectly legitimate argument when one talks about moral superiority, I've always said.

And Chechnya's been Russian for the last 136 years.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:14:54 PM by KnitTie

6

Governors are elected in Russia now.

2 Joesolo

"Ukrainian"? How so? Will you extend the same logic to Crimea, then, which was Russian for... wait, wait for it... more than a hundred years?

Not Georgia - but South Ossetia was fast approaching that.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:23:52 PM by Lyttenburgh

Never said HE murdered them But being a Putin critic sure has a high morality rate. Human rights activist kidnapped and shot in the head, Another critic decided to drink radioactive tea, Boris Nemtsov suddenly shot other street.

Tie I'm not talking about Chechya.

""Ukrainian"? How so? Will you extend the same logic to Crimea, then, which was Russia for... wait, wait for it... more than a hundred years? "

You only use one "wait" in "wait for it".

Well, It turns out, in every poll not taken by Russia, Crimea really didn't want to be Russian. So I'm going by will of the people living there.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:26:51 PM by Joesolo

So? Then why Kosyanov is still alive? Why all those fine people, throwing a shit at Putin for decades are still alive?

You have any proof or not? If not, then why bringing it at all?

I'm not Barney Stinson. How can I dare?

Re: Crimea

Have you read the most recent polls in Crimea? The ones, taken by Ukrainian polling firm?

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:29:43 PM by Lyttenburgh

And, of course, Putin's guilty of all that.

Also, how many Putin critics do you think are alive and in lofty positions right now?

Governors - oh yeah, Putin has changed the constitution so that the local governors are elected instead of being appointed. How does that give him more power.

Edit:obligatory reading about Crimea.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:31:36 PM by KnitTie

Wasn't there something to the effect that he had a term limit issue and had the constitution changed to fix that?

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:31:33 PM by Hodor2

Proof of what? The odd deaths? That's all I'm talking about. Why are you guys implying Putin's behind it? I figured the guy just decided to drink Plutonium tea for fun.

Interesting Theory though.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:32:55 PM by Joesolo

I don't about you but Polonium is a highly unusual way to sugar your tea.

Besides you don't need to silence all your critics, just the ones you actually think that can harm your image or are about to drop a bombshell revelation.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:33:15 PM by AngelusNox

Ah whatever. That's enough about Putin for one day.

I think I found a new line of work. 1,180 rubles and free lunch, all I have to do is make comments! What's your guys' feelings on doing this. New age propaganda or just trying to drown out opposition?

Well, the thing about that is that none of the people who criticised Putin and died suspiciously were able to seriously harm his image. Most of them were absolutely marginal figures by the time of their deaths, such as Nemtsov, about whom 45% of Russians haven't even heard.

Both the laughingstock of the internet and a standard tactic of governments nowadays. It's just that nobody's screaming about paid internet trolls when they are not fighting for Russia.

edited 2nd Apr '15 12:44:16 PM by KnitTie