Marvel-DC Merged Universe Community Project...

I agree with all of the above.

To add, here is the problem with the way you are trying to handle Superman's powers:

It's obvious you're trying to make him a competitive fighter, because you're loading all of his powers down with Necessary Drawbacks, like one would do a videogame character. You want Superman to be someone who struggles in combat, above and beyond everything else. The problem there, though, is that Superman is not a combat-oriented character. He's not a fighter, or a brawler. He's not Goku. Grant Morrison put it best: Superman is a working-class Joe. Superman is who he is because he is constantly working. He's constantly rescuing a cat from a tree, stopping a hurricane, building a sun in his basement, or reading to sick children. The reason his powers are insanely high is because he's supposed to put them to work constantly, and an arbitrary nerf to "make him more clever in combat" misses the point of the character by a wide margin.

For something that's supposed to be a community project, OC has certainly decided unilaterally on a bunch of stuff. Kind of kills any interest I would have in contributing.

Especially since Squirrel Girl doesn't seem to have made the cut.

edited 23rd Oct '13 5:24:07 AM by CorrTerek

The one thing I would say about Squirrel Girl is she wouldn't really belong in the early days of a new 'verse. There'd need to be years of stories already before she got introduced.

But yeah. It does feel like he's less interested in a community project, more interested in building up a fanfic of his own that he wants done.

Come on everybody. The concept of Superman dipping into the sun to get superpowers isn't a bad idea. I've seen people doing crazy magic stunts after dipping into some Copenhagen.

The problem is that's already an idea. Superman does get stronger when he's bathed in pure sunlight, or in close proximity with the sun. But, the OP is talking about essentially lowering Superman to about Spider-man level and requiring said power boost to regain his current power levels—for ten minutes.

If you REALLY want Squirrel Girl, then come up with an idea that involves her and post it here. I would agree with you that she would need to come late into the "Modern Super Hero Boom." The things I posted in the first and second post are subject to change as the community sees fit.

The ideas that I had were meant to be a foundation that we all could build off of, a focusing of the lenses so to speak, it most certainly is NOT supposed to be a monopoly. When I said this was supposed to be a team project, I meant it. But, so far, no one has stepped forward to offer their own unique ideas. Everything you guys posted was based a tweak, a counter idea, or a commentary off of something that I suggested. In fact, some of the ideas I posted were based off of ideas put forward in the other thread, in addition to my own.

I have taken the ideas that have been posted so far into heavy consideration, and even put some in my second post, so trust me when I say that I am listening. My ideas are subject to change. I already tossed out my MJ and Gean Grey scenario (Even though I think it could be cool to see if it is written well...) in favor of an alternative someone already proposed, and am thinking about how to rework Superman. What I posted on him was just an idea, and it is not set in stone.NOTHING here is set in stone. The Captain Marvel and Shazam idea, I also put in the universal bible for the world. So you cannot say that I am not including you in the creative process.

It is kinda hard to make it a community project if all everyone else posts is counters to my own ideas. New stuff needs to be brought to the table in order for this to work, and it seems as though I am the only one doing that.Seriously, please come up with ideas that are independent of the ones I've already suggested. If we are just discussing the stuff that I came up with, then it will largely be MY project instead of THE COMMUNITY PROJECT that I want it to be. If you need me to widen or narrow the parameters for the world, I can and will, but make the suggestions FIRST. It is kinda hard to make changes to something when you don't know WHAT you need to change to. This is supposed to be OUR project, not mine.

If you need a prompt to get your minds flowing, I have a few:

• Come up with an interesting plot for both individual heroes and for groups of heroes.
• Come up with Heroes and Villains you'd like to see fight/interact together. Flesh it out, what do you think their relationship would be...?
• Since this is effectively a merger of both universes, that means that the background lore must be changed accordingly. What ideas do you have about what should change and what shouldn't?
• Have any characters you'd like to see in the world? Well then, post them here, along with a brief description of them, and what needs to be changed (if anything) in order for them to fit in this universe well.

Want a more specific prompting:

• How should we handle the Mutant Registration Act as well as the Vigilantee Registration Act? Are they similar enough that we can fuse them? Or should we use one over the other?
• Where should the Super Heroes be placed in the world? And come to think of it, are we going to import the fictitious cities from DC, or are we going to merge them with real cities, and just make those cities use the DC names as an alias? (Eg, Chicago is also called Metropolis... Boston is also called Gotham...)
• How should we handle the Green Lantern Corps, the Nova Corps, and galactic threats? Are Nova and Green Lantern Rivals, or are they allied? Or were they merged into one powerful group?

Does that help guys?

edited 23rd Oct '13 7:45:01 AM by Durzan

Well, it doesn't help that you pretty much came out the gates telling us what MUST BE DONE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. Don't talk smack to us about criticizing your ideas when your first post listed your ideas as things that must be done.

Again it is general ideas. The caps are for emphasis, since I am not sure how to italicize something. Here, lemmy go back and check my OP... If you interpret that as me coming out of the gates telling everyone what to do, then, well... I don't know what to say.

Okay, from what I saw the only things that I really said MUST happen are Superman getting nerfed, changes to lore to compensate for the combining two separate universes, and that if characters die they should stay dead. That doesn't seem too limiting to me.

edited 23rd Oct '13 7:53:47 AM by Durzan

If my OP is stifling creativity, and ruffling peoples feathers, then I apologize and I will make changes to the OP as needed. The stuff under "A few things to consider" is MEANT to be considered, and used as the foundation for this project. If some of it needs to be changed, then tell me flat out what needs to be changed, and I will consider it. Wording could be a problem, but also the ideas for the foundation itself could probably use some work as well.

A solid foundation is needed for any work. It focuses the parameters down to manageable levels, and helps get everyone onto the same page. I figured that by establishing the foundation in the first post, we could focus more upon the details of the world rather than spend 7-8 pages arguing about what the foundation should be...

IF ANYONE has any suggestions to make the foundation better worded, or better in general please post it now, so I can make the changes.

Edit: I just added a few lines to the Original Post to clarify a few things.

edited 23rd Oct '13 8:01:24 AM by Durzan

You know what, buddy? If you want to make your own fanfic, that's fine. But at least make people aware of that from the get-go.

(Yeah, I know, you wanted to make it a community project. But if that's the case, then make it a community project. On other words, start your thread out with some starting ideas, then only occasionally intervene, and let everyone else contribute as they see fit. This includes letting them not nerf Superman. Yes; if you want this to be a 'community project', and if the community desires to not have Superman nerfed, then don't let Superman be nerfed.)

edited 23rd Oct '13 8:20:35 AM by kkhohoho

I don't really see a need to put a bunch of characters on the chopping block if all we're doing is creating a shared universe. If someone wants to tell a story about Typeface and Bwana Beast fighting Egghead that's fine, they still exist. If someone doesn't want a story to feature those characters, they don't have to mention them. That's the beauty of C and D-listers.

Superman's power levels are also acceptable, I think. He's not particularly stronger than most of Marvel's cosmic heroes.

A more difficult trick would be blending elements the two universes share. Like Atlantis, for instance. A fanfic I read once had Arthur Curry be Namor's cousin (or nephew? I can't remember which), and essentially next in line to the throne and one of the few people Namor trusts. I'm not sure he'd work as Namor's son — Namor just doesn't strike me as the parental type, but Namor as an aloof uncle (or cousin) could probably work.

The Greek pantheon's a bit weird too. Ares is a villain in DC, right? But not necessarily one in Marvel.

Are there any other particular shared elements from both series? Some stuff involving Merlin and King Arthur, maybe?

Also, Justice League, Avengers, or both? If we assume that the Avengers is a mostly US-based team with government/SHIELD support, would the Justice League be a more humanitarian/global team? Either way, I feel the team lineup(s) shouldn't be strictly the same as they were in old Marvel/DC. Have a blend of characters from both 'verses on the team(s).

A few ideas I had about Superman in a shared verse:

Krypton was a multi-planetary empire that was rapidly expanding until their other rivals (Skrull, Kree, Shiar) joined forces to drive them back to Krypton. The Guardians stopped them from committing all-out genocide by enacting a treaty that Krypton was to be left alone as long as no Kryptonian left the planet. However, thanks to meddling and manipulations, when Krypton's doom was imminent, the other races kept it hush until it was far too late to do anything about it. When baby Kal's rocket left, there was even a minor skirmish over those who wanted to intercept it and destroy it to make sure the last Kryptonian was permanently taken care of.

Since Superman would first appear in the modern day, that means Superman can't possibly the world's first hero, since superheroes will have existed since WW 2, and mutants have been public knowledge since the sixties. So in this case, I would take a page from The Nail and state that before Superman, there was no ambassador that dissolved hostilities between metahumans and muggles. However, because his parents knew that supers were ostracized and hated in this reality, Clark's parents raised him to make a difference. Thus, Superman becomes the first superhero that makes the public trust supers.

Clark Kent would go back to his original purpose: to be kind of an Everyman that represented someone unremarkable on the surface, but that was really a hero when it counted. To this effect, I would drop the whole "Clark Kent is really who I am" thing. Clark Kent may be his actual name, but that only mattered in Smallville. I would, once again, make Metropolis!Clark a complete social construct. To explain this, I would have a story where a rookie Superman tries to warn the world of a plot by Luthor, but the world dimisses it because Lex is like "Who would you rather believe? One of us, or one of THEM?". Thus, Superman realizes that there are things he can't do in a costume. He would become a journalist to crack the Lex case wide open "with Superman's help". Thus, we establish both Clark's working relationship with Superman, and Superman's new credibility. It also provides a bit of tension, because Superman is basically committing journalistic fraud For the Greater Good, and if someone finds out his Secret Identity, both Superman's image and all his hard work go down the drain.

edited 23rd Oct '13 9:35:14 AM by KingZeal

We could have an Atlantean civil war, where one side chose to follow Arthur and the other Namor.

Yeah, same with Hercules. In this case, I think Ares is flexible enough to be whatever we wish him to be. We could say that, when there's enough war and strife, the Anti-Hero Ares can become the villainous Ares via Superpowered Evil Side. But, normally, the evil side is an Enemy Without that tries to whisper in his ear every now and then. It gives the character his own personal conflict, and preserves both characters in a way.

Every known pantheon, basically. The Presence and The One Above All (although both are vague enough that they can be easily blended).

Their multiverses are mutually incompatible, though. DC tries to minimize its multiverse as much as possible (which is a really dumb decision, IMO, and is why its continuity is so screwed up) while Marvel earnestly embraces its infinite universes.

That sounds a lot like what both Marvel AND DC tried to do. Marvel had both The Avengers and Secret Avengers as government-sponsored groups and the New Avengers as an autonomous humanitarian group. DC has the Justice League as the humanitarian group and Justice League America as government-sponsored.

edited 23rd Oct '13 9:45:01 AM by KingZeal

That Idea that you had for Superman...is actually pretty good. Could probably be fine tuned a bit more, but I like it.

The other ideas are interesting at well...lets see where they go

Kudos to you King for posting the ideas! Keep fleshing it out!

edited 23rd Oct '13 10:02:42 AM by Durzan

You make some good points.

Instead of putting characters on the chopping block then, how about we put the characters we absolutely want to see INTO the universe for sure, and leave everyone else sort of in reserve. That way, if we decide not to include them, we just don't mention them at all. If we decide that we want to put them in later, just add a few mentions of the person, write up their origin and BADA-BING... their now part of the universe.

As for the Avengers and Justice League... the idea that I had was to either merge them into one super hero group, or have the Avengers be military oriented "special ops like", while Justice League is the independent Humanitarian Organization.

Eventually, my idea eventually leads to the Justice League and Avengers merging to form something to what is seen in Justice League: Unlimited; A organized army of superheroes, complete with orbital space station, rank and all.

__________

Edit: Just added the Alantian Civil War idea to the plot list in the Universal Bible.

Keep the idea's coming people, this is gonna rock!

edited 23rd Oct '13 10:07:01 AM by Durzan

I would say that there should be a Justice League that has members from both universes. The Avengers was always a weird name, chosen purely for Rule of Cool. Justice League is corny, but makes a little more sense.

Also, characters who need to be there: Stilt-Man. Stilt-Man has to be there as a villain. A universe without Stilt-Man is not a universe I want to read about.

On the hero side, Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman has to be there. I also think that Carol Danvers has to be there as Captain Marvel. I stand by my previous rationale for how she gets powers: Billy Batson was the original Captain Marvel in World War 2. He got his powers from alien technology. He eventually had a family and retired from the superhero life. Decades later, his grandson becomes romantically involved with a former Air Force Captain named Carol Danvers. Carols winds up in a dangerous situation having to do with the same alien technology that gave him his powers, and Billy becomes Captain Marvel again to rescue her. In the process, she gets powers, but the strain of using his powers is too much, and he dies. Carol takes on the Captain Marvel name to honour his legacy. I love her current costume, though - I just adore it, and think it's one of the best superhero costume designs I've ever seen - so I would say Billy's costume would be something similar to that.

OHHHHHHHHHH.... that explains a few things...

Okay, this was the origin story for Ms. Marvel, not the next Captain Marvel...

Good idea though. Will definitely add it.

And who is Stilt-Man... sounds like some comic super-villian spoof from a kid's cartoon. The name just sounds...odd. SO, background information please...

edited 23rd Oct '13 10:29:15 AM by Durzan

Couple of random notes that come to mind:

1) Maybe it's the minimalist in me, but I actually think it'd be best to make as few changes to the character origins as possible. The thing is, most of the major characters in both the Marvel and DC universes have very self-contained origin stories, especially the DC heroes created back when they were all very clearly in their own separate worlds. The universes have already been made to bend around the characters within it. I don't see why this merged universe shouldn't do the same.

Of course there are exceptions, mainly in regards to aspects both universes share, like Atlantis and the various pantheons. In that case is where a merge would be most appropriate.

2) Squirrel Girl should be in, because shut up.

3) As the saying goes, "Superman is only as strong as he needs to be". That alone is sufficient.

4) I seriously hope we're not using the freaking Nolanverse as our benchmark of "down to Earth". We're supposed to be having fun with this; last thing we need/want is for this to edge towards grimdark.

5) As mentioned before, DC's continuity is a little screwy right now. How do we handle this? New 52? Pre-New 52? Pick and choose between them? Take everything based on that merged-world scenario from JLA Avengers?

I only mention this because if there's one thing DC's good at, it's taking characters it buys and integrating them into the universe. One of my favorite things about New 52 is the fact that it now has John Constantine roaming around.

6) We all agree that Sentry and Superboy Prime never happened.

C-List Dardevil villain with the power of FUCKING STILTS BIZNATCH

edited 23rd Oct '13 10:44:20 AM by Watchtower

My only concern with the Atlantean Civil War plot is that it would paint Namor (or Arthur) in a bad light. I know Namor's not a super-swell guy, but the man fought alongside Captain America. Seems we should at least keep him as an anti-hero. In addition to that, both Namor and Aquaman have had rogues who schemed to take the throne. That could almost be too much conflict over the throne, if that makes sense.

So here's my thought: Namor has reigned as the King of Atlantis since at least the 40s, and most of his history is the same as it is in Marvel comics.

Arthur Curry is the son of an Atlantean royal and a human. He grew up on land. At some point, his heritage is discovered by [insert Atlantean villain here]. Arthur is brought back to Atlantis with much pomp. Namor welcomes him, though grudgingly as he thinks there's some ulterior motive in Arthur's arrival.

At this point the various Atlantean villains start trying to politically maneuver Namor and Arthur against each other. Arthur doesn't see Namor's good side due to Namor giving him the constant cold shoulder out of suspicion. Anything good Arthur does (heroism, etc.) is suspected of being an attempt to wrest popular opinion away from Namor. The whole situation is practically a powder keg waiting to go off.

Continuing on Atlantis, it doesn't help the situation that Arthur gets along much better with the average surface-dweller than Namor. This comes as a bit of a surprise to him as he had difficulty fitting in as a kid due to his oddness, but apparently once people hear that he's from Atlantis, they're all "oh, now it makes sense!"

Namor is more favored by the conservative elements of Atlantean society who like the idea of staying well away from the surface-dwellers, and keeping the surface-dwellers' pollution and overfishing well away from them. They see Namor as a leader who will kick ass and take names, and doesn't take shit from the landlubbers.

I love the Atlantis storyline, incidentally. I would make Arthur some sort of half-sibling or cousin to Namor or something—not just a noble.

We can say he was born with that whole aquatic telepathy thing, which by ancient Atlantean law, is basically their Sword In The Stone. Anyone with that power is the rightful king, but it's been missing from the royal line for a few generations. But now that Arthur's turned up with it...

edited 23rd Oct '13 11:31:51 AM by KingZeal

Nice job guys...

Atlantian storyline is looking better...

It should help move Aquaman away from being the butt monkey of the Justice League... :P

I don't have much to say on Atlantis, because I am not familiar with it all that much...

So, keep it up!

Not to constantly be the bitter contrarian, but could you not coach us? We really don't need that.

Sorry, it just bugs me.

Exactly. They're both playing to different elements of the Atlantean (and global) population. As a team, they could be very, very dangerous. But of course, the villains will do their best to keep them from realizing that.

I really like the Sword in the Stone idea. That way they both have legitimate claims to the throne. Bonus points if Arthur wouldn't ordinarily choose to be king, but Namor is being represented to him as a tyrant.

Regarding Cadmus, would combining them with the Weapon X program be too much of a stretch? If we assume mutants have been around since at least the sixties, I could see Cadmus being created somewhat earlier than it was in the DC universe.

edited 23rd Oct '13 11:57:52 AM by CorrTerek