I think it can go both ways. On the one hand, cartoons regularly include wanton property damage and personal injury and casual sociopathy, so it's pretty obvious that they're not meant to endorse everything which is depicted.

On the other hand, you could argue that sexual harassment in cartoons is more pernicious than the other stuff because it is less obviously bad, so people might be more likely to subconsciously think that it is acceptable.

Good thing the episode doesn't do that. At no point does it paint Dash in the wrong for telling Zephyr to get lost.

So, how about we move away from this discussion already?

Edited by MrSeyker on Oct 5th 2018 at 11:27:17 AM

If you're going to put MLP on that type of pedestal. Than there's a WHOLE LOT of problems MLP has as a show then.

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Oct 5th 2018 at 11:34:37 AM

Yes.

Yes, there are.

And remember, criticising and acknowledging that something is flawed is not the same as hating it and/or wanting it to be banned.

If you say so, this topic has kinda gotten old though, so I'm okay with dropping this if the the rest of you are.

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Oct 6th 2018 at 1:23:43 AM

I wonder what the first two books by Stygian were about. Since the third one is called "Me and my Shadow." So either he's been milking the same subject for three books, or in his life story he's only just now gotten up to his time as a villain.

Edited by GNinja on Oct 6th 2018 at 8:31:49 AM

Claiming that MLP doesn't intend to teach lessons is, frankly, preposterous. This show has chained itself to the concept of "a friendship lesson a week" episodes to the point that it felt the need to justify in-universe why these lessons didn't need to revolve around Twilight. Lessons and morals are the bread and butter of this show.

And if a show intends to teach our children lessons and morals, viewers have every right to analyze and criticize those lessons, and examine the morals that show portrays, explicitly AND implicitly. This show IS trying to parent children, so parents and teachers SHOULD be bothered by what it is trying to teach, and what it is actually telling their children.

And children are smarter than you think. They pick up on colonialist and sexist subtexts, and form their behaviour based on how the characters deal with those subtexts. They don't do this on an academic or even conscious level, but they DO pick up on it, nonetheless.

So yes, we SHOULD criticize the show for portraying poisonous sexual relationships and trivializing that behaviour by not adressing it and making light of it by presenting it as "jokes".

And we can certainly question this show as to why it doesn't go for the obvious lesson that No Means No, here.

Hiding behind "it's just a cartoon" and "it's just a joke" doesn't make the problem go away. And trying to kill the discussion just so you don't have to think about the implications of your own thoughts and opinions is not how discussions work.

I'll be honest when I say I honestly don't care anymore, nor am I taking this as seriously as you are. I'll continue to think you are taking a joke overly seriously. And you aren't going to convince me otherwise. So you might as well give up and drop it.

I think it's funny, you think it isn't. That's all this adds up to.

I can't say I care about arguing over something so trivial, any further. You can continue but it'll most likely fall on deaf ears :|

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Oct 6th 2018 at 4:44:44 AM

Stop trying to force your indifference on others. We don't have to drop the discussion just because you don't care.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone, don't misinterpret my motives.

Also i'm pretty sure, everyone else in this thread has agreed to drop this topic already. Which is why I said it's okay to drop it now in the first place. So there's also that.

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Oct 6th 2018 at 4:59:03 AM

I definitely didn't get the impression that Zephyr's hitting on Dash was supposed to be ok. He was treated like an asshole, a creep who we were supposed to think of as a loser for a long portion of his screentime.

The gag at the end felt like it was at Mr and Mrs Shy's expense as much as it was at RD's. They were treated as kinda hapless dopes who are oblivious to things sometimes. Our sympathy was always supposed to stay with Dash even as we were laughing. I never once felt like we were supposed to think she SHOULD get with him.

Yeah, I don't recall the episode ever saying it's okay. I think the real problem people have is the joke merely being in the episode.

I think the episode could have done more to call Zephyr's creepiness out directly, though. I mean, if the writers are willing to insert such material, they should also be willing to address it directly. If they felt that was not appropriate for this show, well, they should have not put that behaviour in in the first place.

One possible interpretation I had of Mr. and Mrs. Shy thinking that Rainbow Dash is "pining" for Zephyr is that it was yet another sign of how much control Zephyr had over them. Not only do they not set boundaries for him (even when he's throwing away things that are very important to them, like with the clouds Mr. Shy saved), but he's also got them convinced that Rainbow Dash reciprocates his flirting.

Of course, that's a Watsonian approach to the Doylist problem of "the writers missed a chance to teach a 'no means no' lesson", since Zephyr's unwanted flirting isn't directly addressed in the same way his laziness is.

Edited by Rainbow on Oct 6th 2018 at 7:22:10 AM

I mean, I don't know what the etiquette for this is, but I think the episode aptly demonstrated that he was harmless in his attitude. He was an annoyance worthy of contempt but nothing more. RD could snap him in half like a twig and basically did so halfway through the episode.

His attitude is treated as something that left him homeless, friendless and driven insane in the woods.

And as I've said, my personal read on him from the first time I ever saw the episode was that he was someone who wouldn't know how to react if RD actually did return his advances. He felt like he does them just to do them, but beneath his facade he's sensitive and timid like the rest of his family.

I think the problem is that, by preferring to focus on Zephyr's laziness instead of his creepyness towards women, the episode is implicitly saying that the sexual harassment is not as important as his laziness, that him being lazy is the biggest issue with him. I'm not saying that the lesson about Zephyr not being lazy and making something of himself isn't worthwhile, but the writers muddy the water by introducing another problem on top of their primary conflict, one that is particularly relevant to the target demographic of young girls, and then relegating that problem to comedy relief.

And Zephyr is hardly the only example of this. This show has a structural problem with how it portrays romance, sticking to an outdated, patriarchal mode of sexual relations that is harmful to women, and especially to the young girls in its audience.

I didn't feel like it was just laziness. It was a lack of regard for other people brought on by a lack of regard for himself. He had no self esteem or sense of self worth, so he compensated by showing not a single care for anyone around him. And this manifested in a whole host of ways, not just laziness. Like, his "art studio/meditation garden" that had him throwing out everything his mother and father had built, then pivoting and choosing to commandeer the living room for it instead. That's not really laziness that's just a complete lack of empathy for his parents. How he treats Rainbow seems to be at least partly fueled by this as well, and it's true I think. Men who have no sense of self worth are often really REALLY bad to women.

Edited by GNinja on Oct 6th 2018 at 12:51:38 PM

The episode would have been pretty boring if they took his advances towards RD seriously.

And that wasn't even the main point of the episode anyways.

I think you're right.

Part of the problem is also that Zephyr was not really written with the target demographic in mind. He was written for the adult fans, specifically male bronies. It was basically a Take That! against a very specific kind of brony, not neccesarily an existing one, but one perceived by that particular writer.

It is no coincidence that so many bronies felt uncomfortable watching (or discussing) Zephyr. They felt the character was holding up a mirror to them in some regards.

Post of the Day #2296

Well... THAT sure was oddly relevant.

Well. I guess here's one of those examples I was asking for, then.

Wow, that's got to be a new record for youngest POTD.

"Father Knows Beast" aired.

So hold on. The ep was all about Spike finding his real father, and then in the last minute he reveals he LIED just to live in a castle?!? SO THIS WHOLE episode was.... kinda needless. I mean Sledge even made up an entire backstory of Spike's origins! The only thing Spike got out of it was that he learned he belongs in Ponyville, and that Twilight is his parent, but he kinda learned that already didn't he?

Edited by kyun on Oct 6th 2018 at 9:01:53 AM