So, speaking as an unapologetic Lightning Dust fan, I think she ought to be redeemed. I felt this was a great episode for that, but unfortunately it didn't happen. Maybe she'll make one more appearance next season and finally get it, and that'll be that.

I never really saw LD as some giant douchecanoe way back in S3. I always saw her as someone who simply wanted something so badly she didn't care what happened to people who she was supposed to be keeping an eye on. Having not seen the episode yet, apparently now she just becomes a giant douchecanoe. Not a fan of that.

I think that unwillingness to show children becoming independent from their parental figures is an extension of the unwillingness of the show to depict friendships fading out or ending. The show runs on the idea that these relationships, of friends AND family, are eternal and sacred, and can never be disrupted for ANY reason.

Post of the Day #2270

There's actually a bit of debate in the circles I frequent about Lightning's portrayal in the episode. I'm one of those who actually doesn't think she's all that evil here. She's ridiculously reckless and doesn't think that anyone will really be hurt by what she's doing, but I don't think she ever set out to hurt anyone. The idea of "She doesn't care if anyone gets hurt" is dependent on her thinking getting badly hurt is much of a possibility. Which I don't think she believes. She's the immature, adolescent belief in one's own immortality made manifest.

That's fair. I've been thinking about this on my way into work, and I think part of the issue is that there's basically two different narratives trying to edge each other out.

• The Washouts are bad people who do bad things (disregarding safety regulations) and Scootaloo needs to be protected from them before they get her hurt.
• Scootaloo needs to be allowed to make her own decisions. Rainbow Dash shouldn't try to run her life. It's okay for Scootaloo to be into different things than her.

This mish-mash of mutually exclusive parenting narratives produces a muddled story. GOA mentioned earlier that some people found Lightning Dust to be Unintentionally Sympathetic, and I understand why that is. Lightning Dust accepts Scootaloo for who she is instantly and without question. She is so unconcerned by Scootaloo's differences that Scoots actually joining the Washouts happens offscreen.

The complete lack of conflict implies that Lightning Dust is just like, "Oh, you're disabled? Yeah, of course, that's not a problem. What kind of asshole would have a problem with that?" and then immediately started work on a trick for her. So little needs to be said that she's actively drawing it up on the drawing board when Rainbow Dash shows up, before Scootaloo even mentions her disability onscreen.

This kind of total unhesitating acceptance can be very appealing to anyone who's been in that position of having a parent try to force their round peg into a square hole - especially when Rainbow Dash spends the episode channeling those parents. "No, you're joining the Pony Military just like I did AND THAT'S FINAL." So when Accepting Tolerant Lightning Dust winds up being the bad guy and Angry Military Dad Rainbow Dash the good guy, I can see where there might be some backlash.

It's a product of the mixed narrative. Scootaloo is meant to be in the wrong because she's an angsty teenage rebel chasing what seems "cool" with no regard for her own wellbeing. But Rainbow Dash is also meant to be in the wrong because Scootaloo's her own person and should be allowed to make her own decisions. But this is a situation where they can't both be wrong.

If the Washouts really are such a dangerous threat to Scoots's wellbeing, then it is recklessly irresponsible for Rainbow Dash to "let her be her own person". Because Her Own Person is going to get stupidly killed by listening to her dick-faced new friends. Parents have to figure out where to draw the line on letting a child make their own mistakes, and strapping a rocket to their face and launching themselves off a cliff is pretty far over that line.

If keeping Scootaloo out of the Washouts is to prevent her from dying in a spike-plated crusher, then Rainbow Dash has every right as a metaphorical parent to do exactly that. But she doesn't and, indeed, winds up having to apologize because the story is stapled to the other story where Scootaloo is just trying to work out the course for her life and Rainbow Dash is being Angry Military Dad.

It's an attempt at a Both Sides conflict that winds up awkward and stilted because the two sides undermine rather than complement each other. This is where more emphasis on Scootaloo's story over Rainbow Dash's and more development for Lightning Dust and the Washouts would have helped.

In essence, trying to create a narrative where both parties are wrong and need to compromise was a terrible decision for this story. A good parent should never compromise on their child's physical wellbeing, and a child should never have to compromise on their identity.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 10th 2018 at 8:30:32 AM

Also, Tobias compared this to Forever Filly. Well, I liked this a LOT more than Forever Filly. So maybe that's why the episode's focus doesn't bother me. I see it as an upgraded (or at least more compelling for me personally) version of a concept I thought could've been done better. The ending of Forever Filly is the only real part I liked about it.

Well, I brought it up because a lot of people are LD fans and actually blame the Wonderbolts, Spitfire and the Man Six sans RD for what happened at the end of Wonderbolt Academy rather than her (or at least felt the blame was to share and kicking her out of the Wonderbolts was too harsh a punishment) and always felt sympathetic towards her.

Mind you, all what you just said is, once again, *fascinating* and I can kinda see it.

I thought Dash apologized because her envy was kinda what drove Scootaloo into joining the Washouts.

If Dash wasn't so clearly jealous and insecure, I think Scoots would've been far more likely to see that Dash was only looking out for her. She wouldn't have even had to stop enjoying the Washouts. Imagine if Dash hadn't been jealous. If she'd just explained that these guys are trained and highly skilled. That it's ok to enjoy them, but maybe wait a while and practice until she's closer to their level before trying to sign up. I think Scoots would've listened to that. But Rainbow's completely awful way of handling the situation forced the issue in Scootaloo's mind. It heightened the frustration and the resentment just seeing how oblivious and thoughtless Dash was.

And if she had trained, and if she had joined the Washouts later, I don't think she would've been nearly as likely to see that darker side of Lightning Dust. At least not intitially. The Washouts have a pretty good relationship from what we see. Rolling Thunder got slightly hurt and LD didn't kick her out or anything. She didn't force her to work through her injury. If you are ultimately skilled enough to pull your weight around her, LD seems like a pretty cool pony to be with.

Edited by GNinja on Sep 10th 2018 at 2:46:58 PM

I agree about the mixed morals thing. I thought it was odd, even while watching the episode, that the way they seemed to be pushing two conflicts simultaneously.

Like if you just read a plot summary, you'd think it was all about Scootaloo falling in with the wrong crowd and joining a dangerous stunt group. But the episode spends just as much time (subjectively) pushing the "RD is jealous" subplot. In that, that's part of the reason there was a conflict in the first place, since if RD wasn't an idiot about the whole thing, she could have credibly explained why it was a bad idea to Scootaloo instead of just ripping up her posters and acting betrayed.

I agree that Lightning Dust seems pretty cool to her people. Which is another area where more development and focus on Scootaloo and Lightning Dust would have helped. Most of Lightning Dust's dialogue is shared with Rainbow Dash; we're shown very little of the actual relationship between her and Scootaloo, leaving audiences to infer what they can.

Lightning Dust really doesn't seem so bad. She appears to respect the abilities and limitations of her group. She has a jovial and respectful relationship with people whose particular quirks keep them out of work; indeed, the very nature of the Washouts is such that it provides a cool safety net for ponies deemed unfit for service, which is not a bad thing.

We're meant to be like, "Oh, these ponies are assholes because they failed out of the military," but. Like. Providing job opportunities for people that couldn't get their dream job is a good thing, y'know? There isn't an option for Short Fuse to just not exist and be out of everypony's hair. He deserves a chance for gainful employment.

Which gets back to Lightning Dust being Unintentionally Sympathetic. The fact that she's a returning antagonist colors her appearance here. There's a point I like to bring up in other thematic discussions about Assumed Protagonist Sympathy, wherein the writer assumes that because the main character is the main character, we're going to be on their side anyway and don't need to actually be given a reason to think they're right.

Lightning Dust's portrayal seems to suffer from the opposite: Assumed Antagonist Antipathy. She's a returning villain so we should already know that she's a Bad Person who always does Bad Things and must be scorned. But that's not how she comes across. Instead, she seems like a pretty decent person with one glaring flaw: disregard for safety measures.

Like. That's totally something we can work with. On this show, helping flawed characters overcome their flaws and become better people is pretty much the M.O. But the episode has no interest in helping Lightning Dust learn the error of her ways, because she's not here to be a flawed but sympathetic antagonist; she's here to be The Villain.

Thus, we have a conclusion where Lightning Dust seems downright out of character with how far into the F*ck You I'm Evil well she dives in her treatment of Scootaloo, and then is given a wacky slapstick comeuppance to get her out of the way so that she might return to menace us all with her sinister ways once more.

Lightning Dust devolving into MUWAHAHAHA I'M SO EVIL and then getting violently punted offscreen feels out-of-place both for the nature of the show and for her depiction in the rest of the episode. She's a flawed but sympathetic antagonist treated as though she were a malevolent supervillain.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 10th 2018 at 9:06:25 AM

You're saying she's basically Rainbow Dash with her flaws exaggerated, but still with many of her virtues as well, based on what we've seen, does that seem accurate?

I actually don't thinkwe ARE supposed to instantly think of the Washouts as assholes. RD mentions that she's happy that things worked out for Dust. LD offers RD a position in the Washouts in what can only really be good faith. I saw no ulterior maliciousness in it. She discourages Scoots from joining when she asks. Later on RD goes up to Lightning and admits that it's ok for Scoot to be a fan of them. RD and Twi both love their show. We're only supposed to turn on them, I think, kinda right near the end. When Lightning shows her darker side. Which I thought fit her honestly. I dunno, maybe it's just a type of mentality that appeals to me in an antagonist. Someone who truly doesn't get what danger is. As I said above, she's the adolescent belief in one's own invincibility made flesh.

And she did forshadow this earlier on in one of those "It sounds like a joke but then it turns out to be serious" moments. She said that the only people she endangers now are members of her team. Well, Scoots was a member of the team at the end. So LD expected her to pull her weight.

I read her exit from the episode as pretty lighthearted actually. She gets jerked off screen, but I didn't really feel much mean spiritedness from it. I thought RD's "I wouldn't have it any other way" sounded almost fond. Like, LD hasn't changed this time, but there's always next time. That kinda feel.

Edited by GNinja on Sep 10th 2018 at 3:30:28 PM

I am willing to go a step further and say Tobias hits the nail right on the head.

I think part of it is the insistence on there being a "bad guy" in the story. The Washouts didn't NEED to be bad guys. And even if you keep the "no safety" thing, you could have had them LEARN, instead of just punting them into the sky and forgetting about them. If the Washouts learn to respect the importance of safety measures, then Scoots could have joined, and we would have a great episode that manages to redeem Lightning to boot.

And I didn't like Forever Filly much either, mainly because it made Rarity so hysterical and immature.

I don't think the point is that it was mean-spirited, but rather that it was in the careless kind of way that recurring villains who are never defeated or reformed, and never SUPPOSED to, are dispatched. Team Rocket is a very good example of this, actually. Team Rocket are never really defeated, but they don't get redeemed either. They just get kicked off screen once the plot is done with them so they don't get in the way.

It is kind of weird how the show insists on reforming MUCH worse villains (Starlight, anyone?), but can't be bothered to fix the flaw of this relatively minor villain.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:04:37 PM

Great. Now I feel alone in being the only one here who really liked this episode...

Not at all. I liked Scootaloo being a bit more independent and standing up for herself, and having the courage to say to her idol that she is moving on from what her idol does to pursue something that she can actually pursue and be great at. That is a GREAT lesson for children to learn! In that sense, it was a great episode.

And from the other side, learning to let your child make their own choices and have their own hobbies independent of you is a great lesson for parents to learn.

The issue is more about the handling of Lightning as a villain, and Dash' and Scoots' plots interfering with each other.

Also, Team Rocket are never redeemed because they're barely villains. There's an odd relationship between recurring villains and main characters in a show like that. Where they're almost friendly with each other by virtue of the fact that they interact so much, nd they aren't particularly malicious. I noticed this phenomenon in Xiaolin Showdown as well.

I wish I could articulate this better, because it's been on my mind for literally years at this point.

Edited by GNinja on Sep 10th 2018 at 5:21:05 PM

It had its good points. For me, it's just that the good makes the bad much worse. I like the idea of this episode, and those are usually the episodes I hit the hardest with my critique. Anyone who's heard me rant about "Amending Fences" is probably familiar with this.

In essence, I feel like this episode had a wealth of potential that went unrealized. They wasted a great premise that can now never be used again. We can never revisit Scootaloo joining the Washouts. We can never redeem their lack of safety. We can never talk about Scootaloo moving on from Rainbow Dash as her hero. It's done. It's over. That story is told. Any further dealings with it would just be rehashing.

And it was told poorly.

This episode had a lot of great ideas that can never be revisited, and those ideas were utterly wasted by the way the episode handled them. Worse, some of them are really important for Scootaloo's growth and development as a character. Some really important stories were crushed to death, never to be seen again. To me, that is much more upsetting than a story that never had any potential to be interesting and then fizzles out as expected.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 10th 2018 at 12:21:24 PM

I enjoyed it too for the most part but don't really have anything to add.

I do sometime find it hard to engage with Both Sides Have a Point stories since there's no one to really root for. Except for Scoots to stop being a reckless dumbass, which is wishful thinking anyway.

If we see Lightning Dust again I wonder if she'll be in a full body wing and hoof cast.

Actually nah, I think that would be too mean. Though part of me does want to see someone get really badly hurt around Lightning. Just to see how she'd react. Cuz it's still my belief that danger isn't quite "real" to her yet.

In a hypothetical world where "The Washouts" emphasized Scootaloo and Lightning Dust's side of the story over Rainbow Dash's, that might have been a good turning point for her character. Indeed, "young people thinking themselves invulnerable" would be a strong thematic explanation for Lightning Dust's behavior that would tie into the episode's theme about the importance of safety. It would also give her a way to parallel Scootaloo, who once slingshotted herself to Cloudsdale on a whim, allowing them to both learn a valuable lesson together.

Lightning Dust has a startling revelation about mortality and Scoots is still all, "Lemme go practice my death-defying stunt with no safety regulations!" and LD suddenly realizes that Rainbow Dash was right. The bad influence realizes what she's been and now has to fix her mess.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 10th 2018 at 12:28:25 PM

I'm always torn about this stuff because I like episodes with recurring villains who remain villains at the end. I personally like the idea that LD is a really cool pony but has this darker side that comes out in certain circumstances. Like it's easy to get so wrapped up in her confidence and bravado that you forget that she was kicked out of the bolts for being reckless and dnagerous. She really is Dash but without inhibitions.

And I'm not saying I don't want her redeemed ever, I just like episodes where the recurring antagonist remains "bad" at the end.

LD is probably going to be unhurt, since she can fly, even ignoring the whole cartoon physics thing.

Anyway, I think it makes sense that not every villain has to be redeemed. But having an injury would be a good point for LD to do a Heel Realization.

Edited by storyyeller on Sep 10th 2018 at 3:49:02 PM

But redeeming this particular villain would have provided good character development for her and Scootaloo, and several good lessons to boot. If any villain redemption plot was worth having, it would have been this one.

Dude, I don't think the showrunners have ever been afraid of rehashing prior episodes. Other fans have accused them of doing it in a bunch of episodes over the last few seasons. I haven't always agreed with those accusations... but there's an episode coming up that's pretty blatantly a do-over for an episode from all the way back in season two.

So if the show never revisits the Washouts or Scootaloo's development, it'll be because the writers doesn't think it's a priority, not because they're trying not to rehash any plot points.

Also remember we only have one more season to go after this one. Season 9 will no doubt have a long list of stories the writers REALLY want to do before the final curtains, and revisiting this one may be quite a way down the list.